Bah'ulllahs Photographs

All research or scholarship questions
*CLoud_seeKer*
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Bah'ulllahs Photographs

Postby *CLoud_seeKer* » Sat Jun 27, 2009 5:38 pm

This is my first post on this forum. I have been in contact with a few Baha'is over the last few weeks and I can honestly say that I have been very impressed with how decent and inteligent I have found them to be. I stumbled on this forum a while a go and again I have been very impressed by the knowledge shown by the Baha'is on this forum.

I understand that Baha'is believe that the photographs of Bah'ullah should be treated with respect. I know of one picture of Bah'ullah which can be found on the web, but I am interested in the other picture (according to the following link, there are two photographs of Bah'ullah in existence)

http://bahai-library.com/uhj/photo.bahaullah.html

I was wondering if any Bah'ai on this forum has ever seen a copy of the 2nd picture. I would also like to have a chance to see the picture of Bah'ullah (I am not a Baha'i), how would somebody like me be able to do this.

Thanks

AdibM
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Re: Bah'ulllahs Photographs

Postby AdibM » Sat Jun 27, 2009 10:28 pm

Dear Cloud Seeker,

Baha'u'llah's photograph can be found at the bottom of the Wikipedia article under his name. This is also the same photograph as the one in the International Archives Building at the Baha'i World Centre in Haifa, Israel, which the letter you provided refers to.

I wonder about this second photograph myself. But I think that there are more than two in existence - when the World Centre says two, they probably mean two "good" photographs. So what's a bad one? Well, my father worked at a sort of archives-like building in Iran during his adolescence and early adulthood that had all sorts of rare Baha'i artifacts, including several lesser-known photographs of Baha'u'llah (though they were all taken in the same sitting as the one on Wikipedia, according to him, which was taken in Edirne, Turkey). In one of them - a "bad" one by my terminology - His eyes are closed. My father also vaguely recalls a "good" picture where Baha'u'llah's pose was different - He was leaning forward. Perhaps this is the second photograph. I cannot confirm this, however, as I have not seen it.

Adib
"To be a Bahá'í simply means to love all the world; to love humanity and try to serve it; to work for universal peace and universal brotherhood." -- `Abdu'l-Bahá

Keyvan
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Re: Bah'ulllahs Photographs

Postby Keyvan » Sat Jul 04, 2009 11:35 am

Once I was at a lecture by Fmr. Universal House of Justice Member Ali Nakhjavani, at the LA Baha'i Center. He was asked a question about this photograph that is on Wikipedia and other sites. He explained that the wikipedia photo was one the "first take" they took of Baha'u'llah. Baha'u'llah was supposedly shown this photograph and said He didn't like how it came out, and requested a re-take. They did another take of Him, and it was to His liking. It is that second photo that is in the archives building.

A few years later I went to the archives building and saw the photo Baha'u'llah approved of. I found it to be an enormous difference. He looks completely different between the two photos, and I can understand Baha'u'llah's sentiment in opting for that re-take, as the first take did not illustrate Him with justice.

It's a shame that if either photo were to be circulated online - that is, the one that millions and millions see to get an impression of His image - it had to be the bad one; the one He did not like.

*CLoud_seeKer*
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Re: Bah'ulllahs Photographs

Postby *CLoud_seeKer* » Sat Jul 04, 2009 12:38 pm

Dear Keyvan/AdibM

Thank you both for your replys. I wonder how the photograph of Bah'ullah which has been circulated on the web came to be freely available to the public. Judging by Bah'ullahs own opnion of it, I doubt very much that that Universal House of Justice would have realised this one.

It begs the question that why wasn't the photograph of Bah'ullah which he himself did not like destroyed immediately, to prevent the current situatiuon from happening. Wouldn't it be best for the UHJ to now make the other 'better' photograph of Bah'ullah available just to counter any negative aspects of the one that is already out.

Keyvan
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Re: Bah'ulllahs Photographs

Postby Keyvan » Sun Jul 05, 2009 12:06 am

As I understand it, before the Internet circulation, a Covenant-Breaker published a book and included that photograph (which he somehow got a hold off). I'm guessing someone scanned that picture from that book and published it online.

AdibM
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Re: Bah'ulllahs Photographs

Postby AdibM » Sun Jul 05, 2009 12:58 am

That's probably William Miller, a Presbyterian missionary who was always very hostile towards the Faith. The photograph was published in his polemical work, Baha'ism, Its Origin, History and Teachings. My uncle owns this book and the picture is there.
"To be a Bahá'í simply means to love all the world; to love humanity and try to serve it; to work for universal peace and universal brotherhood." -- `Abdu'l-Bahá

*CLoud_seeKer*
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Re: Bah'ulllahs Photographs

Postby *CLoud_seeKer* » Sun Jul 05, 2009 3:43 am

Dear Keyvan/AdibM,

Thank you again for your replys.

That's probably William Miller, a Presbyterian missionary who was always very hostile towards the Faith. The photograph was published in his polemical work, Baha'ism, Its Origin, History and Teachings. My uncle owns this book and the picture is there.


In my research of the Baha'i faith I have heard of both the author and the book, but have not had a chance to read it yet.

I'm guessing that if Mr Miller had access to the picture which he used in his book, then he must have had access to all the pictures of Bah'ullah. If he was hostile towards the faith as AdibM says then it makes sense that he would use the one that does not show him at his best light (or atleast the one that Bah'ullah himself disliked).

BruceDLimber
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Re: Bah'ulllahs Photographs

Postby BruceDLimber » Mon Jul 06, 2009 7:23 am

Greetings!

*CLoud_seeKer* wrote:Dear Keyvan/AdibM,

That's probably William Miller, a Presbyterian missionary who was always very hostile towards the Faith. The photograph was published in his polemical work, Baha'ism, Its Origin, History and Teachings. My uncle owns this book and the picture is there.


In my research of the Baha'i faith I have heard of both the author and the book, but have not had a chance to read it yet.

I'm guessing that if Mr Miller had access to the picture which he used in his book, then he must have had access to all the pictures of Bah'ullah. If he was hostile towards the faith as AdibM says then it makes sense that he would use the one that does not show him at his best light (or atleast the one that Bah'ullah himself disliked).


Believe me: the fact that you haven't read his book is no great loss!

He pretends to be presenting an academic treatise, and then subtly distorts things to give the worst possible picture!

(And he obviously wasn't a covenant-breaker, BTW, as he was never a Baha'i.)

If you want to read something worth while, I suggest Douglas Martin's review and refutation of Miller's book and its falsehoods. It was originally published in World Order, and I have it available online; if you'd like a copy of it, please let me know!

I'll give just one example to show the sort of distortion Miller specialized in:

He gives an account of how 'Abdu'l-Baha condemned a certain convenant-breaker and urged him to repent; then says that this individual was discovered dying shortly thereafter, bleeding from the throat. IOW, Miller makes it sound like 'Abdu'l-Baha had his throat cut.

In fact, the person was dying of an ailment and coughed up blood shortly before his death.

Martin gives plenty of other examples of the style of Miller's "expose" of the Faith.

Regards, :-)

Bruce

*CLoud_seeKer*
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Re: Bah'ulllahs Photographs

Postby *CLoud_seeKer* » Tue Jul 14, 2009 7:39 am

Dear BruceDLimber,

thank you for your reply. I would like to have a look at Martins book, can you maybe PM the link ?

Believe me: the fact that you haven't read his book is no great loss!

He pretends to be presenting an academic treatise, and then subtly distorts things to give the worst possible picture!]



If you want to read something worth while, I suggest Douglas Martin's review and refutation of Miller's book and its falsehoods. It was originally published in World Order, and I have it available online; if you'd like a copy of it, please let me know!


I understand what you mean by the above, but to arrive at a fair conclusion of the Baha'i community and its beliefs, I believe that I should read both the negative and positive things written about the community.

I know that Baha'is are happy to use the description of Bah'ullah given by Browne, but on the whole I believe that Browne was very negative about Bah'ullah and is communty. Just using the positive parts of Browne work doesn't give a fair reflection of the mans work and gives the impression that he might have been inclined towards the Baha'i faith, which he wasn't.

I have to add that one thing that bothers me about the Baha'is, is that I believe that Baha'is are not allowed to talk to or read things written by ex-Baha'is or covenent breakers or people who write negative things about the faith. What is the point of "independent investigation of truth" if you can't interact with these people.

AdibM
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Re: Bah'ulllahs Photographs

Postby AdibM » Tue Jul 14, 2009 8:28 am

I understand what you mean by the above, but to arrive at a fair conclusion of the Baha'i community and its beliefs, I believe that I should read both the negative and positive things written about the community.


Fair enough. I can't find it online; perhaps you could request it on inter-library loan.

I know that Baha'is are happy to use the description of Bah'ullah given by Browne, but on the whole I believe that Browne was very negative about Bah'ullah and is communty. Just using the positive parts of Browne work doesn't give a fair reflection of the mans work and gives the impression that he might have been inclined towards the Baha'i faith, which he wasn't.


Actually there is now reason to believe that Browne did not die with Azali but rather Baha'i sympathies. You might be interested to hear the following from a Baha'i historian:

There are several references, as you well know, to Mr. [Howard Colby] Ives associating with Montfort Mills 1911-1912. In reading about the early days of the Faith in the United States I've come to have such great respect for Mr. Mills' grasp of the Faith and his contributions to advancing the interests of the Faith. However, few even in these days know about one major service to the Faith. Horace Holley's tribute to him in Volume XI of / The Bahá'í World, / 1940-1950, states that Mr. Mills (pg. 510) with characteristic influence upon people "was his discussion with the late Professor Edward Browne. . . . After hearing Mr. Mills' explanation of the evolution of the Faith from the Báb to Bahá'u'lláh, and it subsequent stages under the Center of the Covenant and the terms of His testament, Professor Browne realized that he had been veiled by the preoccupation with conflicting claims and disturbances which followed the Martyrdom of the Báb. He expressed his desire to translate later Bahá'í works, but died before this contribution to the Faith could be made."

Perhaps you are aware of the following contribution of Mr. Mills but I've found that few Bahá'ís are aware of this event. When I read the Hand of the Cause H. M. Balyuzi's scholarly book / Edward Granville Browne and The Bahá'í Faith / and found that even he was unaware of the change in heart by Professor Browne, I felt quite perplexed. Finally, I decided that someone needed to write to a Hand of the Cause about an error in his scholarship! My letter to him in care of George Ronald, publisher, was passed on to him. He sent me a very kind response saying that he had not known of this change by Professor Browne and would correct the matter in the next publication of the book. He said he knew of Mr. Mills but had not met him (I asked if they had met).
It is unlikely that such a 'heavy' book will be republished, but I was told by Mrs. Hoffman, then the editor, that the letter would be on file about the book.


Additionally, there is a Persian book about Baha'u'llah written by the late scholar Dr. Riaz Ghadimi, wherein it is cross-referenced that years later Browne realized the error of his ways and came to Abdu'l-Baha to apologize to Him (in Paris?) and Abdu'l-Baha forgave him.

Lastly, his sharp decline in interest in the Azalis is corroborated by this analysis:

http://adibmasumian.googlepages.com/BrowneAzaletal.doc

I have to add that one thing that bothers me about the Baha'is, is that I believe that Baha'is are not allowed to talk to or read things written by ex-Baha'is or covenent breakers or people who write negative things about the faith. What is the point of "independent investigation of truth" if you can't interact with these people.


There is nothing in the writings which expressly forbids us to read such literature; we are merely discouraged from doing so. If we couldn't read such things then there'd be no such thing as Baha'i apologetics, now would there? ;)
"To be a Bahá'í simply means to love all the world; to love humanity and try to serve it; to work for universal peace and universal brotherhood." -- `Abdu'l-Bahá

BruceDLimber
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Re: Bah'ulllahs Photographs

Postby BruceDLimber » Thu Jul 16, 2009 7:21 am

*CLoud_seeKer* wrote:I would like to have a look at Martins book, can you maybe PM the link?


You can find it on the Baha'i Library website at www.bahai-library.org
where it's number 144 under "Published papers," with the title "The Missionary as Historian."

[O]ne thing that bothers me about the Baha'is, is that I believe that Baha'is are not allowed to talk to or read things written by ex-Baha'is or covenent breakers or people who write negative things about the faith.


This isn't entirely correct.

There's no problem whatever with reading material written by former Baha'is, who have full rights to be Baha'i or not any time, as they see fit!

We are specifically discouraged from reading covenant-breaker material, although this isn't forbidden outright. Further, the number of covenant-breakers is itself extremely small, so this doesn't present a major problem, anyway.

I hope you enjoy the article; do post here again once you've had the chance to read it and share your impressions with us! We'll be most interested in hearing them.

Best regards, :-)

Bruce

*CLoud_seeKer*
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Re: Bah'ulllahs Photographs

Postby *CLoud_seeKer* » Thu Jul 16, 2009 3:55 pm

Thank you for the reference Bruce, I will read it when I get the chance and get back to you at some point,

Just want clarification on one point, you said

We are specifically discouraged from reading covenant-breaker material, although this isn't forbidden outright.


that seems to be slightly different from the below

And now, one of the greatest and most fundamental principles of the Cause of God is to shun and avoid entirely the Covenant-breakers, for they will utterly destroy the Cause of God, exterminate His Law and render of no account all efforts exerted in the past.
(Bahá'í World Faith, p. 448)

AdibM
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Re: Bah'ulllahs Photographs

Postby AdibM » Thu Jul 16, 2009 7:36 pm

*CLoud_seeKer* wrote:Thank you for the reference Bruce, I will read it when I get the chance and get back to you at some point,

Just want clarification on one point, you said

We are specifically discouraged from reading covenant-breaker material, although this isn't forbidden outright.


that seems to be slightly different from the below

And now, one of the greatest and most fundamental principles of the Cause of God is to shun and avoid entirely the Covenant-breakers, for they will utterly destroy the Cause of God, exterminate His Law and render of no account all efforts exerted in the past.
(Bahá'í World Faith, p. 448)


Which is why the House of Justice clarified:

"To read the writings of Covenant-breakers is not forbidden to the believers and does not constitute in itself an act of Covenant-breaking. Indeed, some of the Baha'is have the unpleasant duty to read such literature as part of their responsibilities for protecting the Cause of Baha'u'llah. However, the friends are warned in the strongest terms against reading such literature because Covenant-breaking is a spiritual poison and the calumnies and distortions of the truth which the Covenant-breakers give out are such that they can undermine the faith of the believer and plant the seeds of doubt unless he is forearmed with an unshakable belief in Baha'u'llah and His Covenant and a knowledge of the true facts."

(From a letter dated 29 October 1974 to the National Spiritual Assembly of Switzerland)
"To be a Bahá'í simply means to love all the world; to love humanity and try to serve it; to work for universal peace and universal brotherhood." -- `Abdu'l-Bahá

BruceDLimber
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Re: Bah'ulllahs Photographs

Postby BruceDLimber » Fri Jul 17, 2009 6:58 am

Hi again! :-)

I trust Adib clarified the Baha'i stance adequately.

It's worth noting, I think, that the main prohibition is on personal interaction with covenant-breakers, far more so than reading their material (though this, too, is hardly encouraged).

My regards, and please feel free to ask any further questions you may have; we love 'em! :-)

Bruce


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