A couple of questions

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Ascent
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Joined: Sat Jun 13, 2009 9:00 am

A couple of questions

Postby Ascent » Sun Jun 14, 2009 11:46 pm

Hello all,
As I have been reading more into Bahai material a couple of questions have come up that I would like to get some views on:

1) As Bahais we recognize Lao Tzu as highly enlightened individual and not a prophet right? My question is where does such enlightenment come from?

2) Is it possible for us to have the wisdom to reconcile disagreements people have with the faith and the standard of life we are supposed to live up to, without earlier study of the writings? And once again if we can where do such answers originate from?

Peace and Love

brettz9
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Re: A couple of questions

Postby brettz9 » Mon Jun 15, 2009 8:40 am

Hello and most welcome, Ascent!

Some very thoughtful questions...

As far as Lao-Tse, there is, as far as I have seen, only this quotation:

"Regarding Lao-Tse: The Bahá'ís do not consider him a prophet, or even a secondary prophet or messenger, unlike Buddha or Zoroaster, both of whom were divinely-appointed and fully independent Manifestations of God.

(On behalf of Shoghi Effendi, at http://bahai-library.com/file.php?file= ... roaster#15 )


So, there doesn't seem to be anything saying he was (or was not) enlightened. Confucius was perhaps unique in our Writings, in that he was described as being a great moral reformer (he was explicitly praised) and mentioned in the same context as such Manifestations of God as Buddha, though he was not described as any kind of Prophet (nor did Confucius himself ever claim to be, saying as he did, that he did not know this life, let alone the next life).

As far as where the enlightenment may come from in the case of enlightened individuals, some, like Confucius, may have been simply inspired by God to revive ancient traditions which had earlier been brought by a Manifestation of God, while others, such as the poets, philosophers, musicians, reformers, etc. in the time of or just before Baha'u'llah, were indirectly inspired by the Spirit released as a result of the approaching or nascent Revelation. The Baha'i Writings, for example, mention that Baha'u'llah's Spirit is not only acting through His community, but also indirectly through "certain humanitarian organizations" (at http://www.bahai-library.com/writings/s ... ll.html#19 ).

For more on some of the Eastern Prophets, you might like http://bahai-library.com/file.php?file= ... _zoroaster .

Is it possible for us to have the wisdom to reconcile disagreements people have with the faith and the standard of life we are supposed to live up to, without earlier study of the writings?


Well, certainly, God has shed on everyone some potential for discerning spiritual truth, even without a direct awareness of His Revelation (good intentions are of high importance), but really, it is only through a conscious knowledge of God's Latest Messenger's Writings (or Life, during His lifetime) that we can truly discern the Straight Path--human beings need a perfect Educator with a comprehensive knowledge of material, human, and spiritual matters. I think that should be fairly evident given how there are so many religious sects and even politicians who sincerely believe to have God on their side, and so on, and yet they can't agree and bring unity.

Once we examine Baha'u'llah's life and teachings--as we can do with any of the previous Messengers--we are led to recognize His qualification to be given such trust, as there are many proofs which can establish His Truth. And after recognizing Him, we are also fortunate in this Revelation of Baha'u'llah, to have a clear Successorship, so we are not left in the dark as to where to turn for perfect guidance after His passing, nor as as a result are we divided with persistent sects.

So, it is to Him directly (through His Writings and institutions) that we can most effectively turn. (Of course, spiritual practices such as prayer, can better ensure our studies are properly directed, as we rely on divine blessings for advancing our knowledge.)

If you are more talking about how much study a new Baha'i would need in order to do teaching, there are these words from on behalf of Shoghi Effendi (the Guardian of the Baha'i Faith, who was appointed after 'Abdu'l-Baha (Who had been appointed by Baha'u'llah)):

It is also very important to hold study classes and go deep in the teachings. A great harm is done by starting to teach without being firmly grounded in the literature. "Little knowledge is dangerous" fully applies to the teaching work. The friends should read the Writings to be able to quote from the Tablets when discussing subjects pertaining to the Faith.

(From a letter dated 9 May 1932 written on behalf of Shoghi Effendi to an individual believer at http://bahai-library.com/file.php?file= ... pening#105 )


There is, however, another quotation (sorry I can't find it now), which says to the effect that if we wait to know everything, we will never teach. So, there has to be a balance between knowledge and direct experience. But we definitely need to be acquiring more knowledge from the Writings, learning how we are to teach, as well as following our teachings and laws so that we can gain some amount of wisdom that you speak of.

And once again if we can where do such answers originate from?


These answers can be found both in the Writings, in the plans of our institutions (specifically the infallible Universal House of Justice which is now the Center of the Faith), as well as by learning from the experiences and insights of our fellow believers, both through training classes, as well as through periodic community consultation meetings which are to focus on our teaching experiences.

Right now, the world-wide Baha'i community is in the still relatively early phases of providing training classes, but your local community should have "Ruhi" courses which are meant to help build the knowledge, skills, and insights which can help in this work. Beyond that (as our study really must be ongoing, and cannot be fully covered in a finite number of courses), our Writings specifically recommend that certain books be studied or deeply studied. The Research Department of the Baha'i World Center (under the Universal House of Justice) indicates especially in these two compilations the particular books we are to study: http://bahai-library.com/file.php?file= ... _deepening and in the context of meetings, http://bahai-library.com/file.php?file= ... i_meetings . I've tried to draw the contents of these compilations and a few others together into a more structured form to hopefully help people get a quick overview more easily: http://bahai-library.com/?file=zamir_adult_youth_study

Since you mention a standard of life, here is one interesting passage, which may or may not be what you are looking for:

If Bahá'í youth combine such personal purity with an attitude of uncensorious forbearance towards others they will find that those who may have criticized or even mocked them will come, in time, to respect them.

(Messages from the Universal House of Justice, at http://bahai-library.com/published.uhj/ ... 6.html#253 )


Hope that helps give some food for thought, though feel free to clarify more if you were looking for something else...

all the best,
Brett

Ascent
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Re: A couple of questions

Postby Ascent » Mon Jun 15, 2009 10:59 pm

Thank you, yes that was quite helpful.

I would just like to clarify a little more on enlightenment. In the sense of the state that many people (such as Buddhist monks) claim to reach. The main reason I am asking about this is because in the process of meditation I had what I could describe as an "out of body" experience and really do not know how to explain it.

BruceDLimber
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Location: Rockville, Maryland, USA

Re: A couple of questions

Postby BruceDLimber » Tue Jun 16, 2009 7:22 am

Ascent, hi! :-)

Ascent wrote:Is it possible for us to have the wisdom to reconcile disagreements people have with the faith and the standard of life we are supposed to live up to, without earlier study of the writings?


While it's not scriptural, I would refer you to Taherzadeh's Revelation of Baha'u'llah. Although I don't have the book at hand right now, I believe the key passage that addresses your question is in Volume Two, specifically in the chapter titled "Kitab-i-Aqdas 3" on roughly page 314 (I may have the volume wrong, but coincidentaly, we happened to deepen on this chapter last night!).

It speaks of the definite necessity of reading the Writings and the fact that someone endeavoring to produce these same results without Divine Guidance really has no firm basis for his or her actions.

(I'm sure you can easily find this book if you're working in Bahai' surroundings.)

Hope this helps!

Regards, :-)

Bruce

someone
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Re: A couple of questions

Postby someone » Thu Jun 18, 2009 12:12 pm

Ascent wrote:Thank you, yes that was quite helpful.

I would just like to clarify a little more on enlightenment. In the sense of the state that many people (such as Buddhist monks) claim to reach. The main reason I am asking about this is because in the process of meditation I had what I could describe as an "out of body" experience and really do not know how to explain it.



hello!

As far as i remember "enlightenment" in the Buhddist sence is basic. not so much bells and whistles but has more to do with acceptance of the nature of self or non-self or self-non-self.

it is the term Arahant or Tathagata that require the bells and whistles

wisdom and enlightenment are two different things. enlightment is learning to drive the car, wisdom is knowing where to drive to.

I would suggest some deepening on the 4 truths for noble men and the tripatkas (three baskets)

http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/index.html

there is a very small book written by the dali lama called the "the four noble truths" it is a little book but very good at explaining the foundations of the teachings of lord Gautama which is based on "dependent arrising" or "dependent origination"

imHo, it is an understanding on how the brain works with the emotions and the soul-non-soul

out of body" experience


just wait until it happens at the checkout line:)


don't worry about it
it is part of becoming disentangled

read
then read again
then pray
then read again
then pray
then read again
and so on


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