Do baha'is believe in Satan?

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Zazaban
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Do baha'is believe in Satan?

Postby Zazaban » Mon Oct 16, 2006 6:16 pm

I tried searching this on google and got a lot of anti-Baha'i sites for some reason. :?
Justice and equity are twin Guardians that watch over men. From them are revealed such blessed and perspicuous words as are the cause of the well-being of the world and the protection of the nations.
~ Bahá'u'lláh

Jonah
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Postby Jonah » Tue Oct 17, 2006 5:20 am

If you use the search feature at this site (bottom of any page) you'll get a lot more useful stuff. Search for "Satan" or "Heaven and hell." Or click here: http://www.google.com/custom?q=satan&si ... ibrary.com

Here are three things that come up in the first few results that might help. First, from http://bahai-library.com/?file=nigosian_world_faiths :
Heaven and hell are not places but conditions of the soul, which is in a continual and eternal state of evolution. When the soul is near God and his purposes, that is heaven. When the soul is distant from God, that is hell.

To put it differently: according to the Bahá'í faith, heaven represents a state of perfection, and hell of imperfection; heaven is the fulfillment of harmony with God's will and one's fellow beings, and hell is the absence of such harmony. The joys of heaven are spiritual, and the sorrows of hell consist of the absence of these joys. Bahá'ís reject any belief in the objective existence of the forces of evil. Just as darkness is simply the absence of light, so evil is explained as the absence of divine qualities at any particular level of existence.


From http://bahai-library.com/?file=brownste ... commentary :
[On the Kitab-i-Iqan's mention of "the embodiments of satanic fancy":]

Another obstacle that must be cleansed from the heart are fanciful ideas with no reality. These can take on a life of their own and thus become "embodied" as if they were real. Such embodiments resist the acquisition of divine knowledge and thus are satanic. The Hebrew term for Satan, from which the Islamic concept of Satan was derived, comes from the root meaning "to resist." These demons of fanciful ideas are hurtful, and inflict the hellish pain of being separated from the joy of the divine presence.


From http://bahai-library.com/?file=warwick_good_and_evil :
What is Evil?

"Evil is nonexistent; it is the absence of good."

Bahá'ís do not believe in the existence of evil as a seperate entity:

"The intellectual realities, such as all the qualities and admirable perfections of man, are purely good, and exist. Evil is simply their nonexistance. So ignorance is the want of knowledge; error is the want of guidence; forgetfulness is the want of memory; stupidity is the want of good sense. All these things have no real existence.
In the same way, the sensible realities are absolutely good, and evil is due to their nonexistance - that is to say, blindness is the want of sight, deafness is the want of hearing, poverty is the want of wealth, illness is want of health, death is the want of life, and weakness is the want of strength."

Evil is Relative

Things can be evil in relation to one another but not evil in themselves:

"Nevertheless a doubt occurs to the mind - that is, scorpions and serpants are poisonous. Are they good or evil, for they are existing beings? Yes a scorpion is evil in relation to man; a serpent is evil in relation to man; but in relation to themselves they are not evil, for their poison is their weapon, and by their sting they defend themselves... it is possible that one thing in relation to another may be evil, and at the same time within the limits of its proper being it may not be evil. Then it is proved that there is no evil in existence; all that God created He created good. This evil is nothingness; so death is the absence of life. When man no longer receives life, he dies. Darkness is the absence of light: When there is no light, there is darkness. Light is an existing thing, but darkness is nonexistent. Wealth is an existing thing, but poverty is nonexisting."

Satan or the Evil One

In many of the scriptures evil has been personified as the Devil or Satan, But Bahá'ís believe that these words are used simply as symbols.

"This lower nature in man is symbolized as Satan - the evil ego within us, not an evil personality outside."

"The reality underlying this question is that the evil spirit, Satan or whatever is interpreted as evil, refers to the lower nature in man. This baser nature is symbolized in various ways... If you should leave a man uneducated and barbarous in the wilds of Africa, would there be any doubt about his remaining ignorant? God has never created an evil spirit; all such ideas and nomenclature are symbols expressing the mere human or earthly nature of man. It is an essential condition of the soil of earth that thorns, weeds and fruitless trees may grow from it. Relatively speaking, this is evil; it is simply the lower state and baser product of nature.
It is evident, therefore, that man is in need of divine education and inspiration, that the spirit and bounties of God are essential to his development."

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Re: Do baha'is believe in Satan?

Postby Baha'i Warrior » Tue Oct 17, 2006 11:49 am

Zazaban wrote:I tried searching this on google and got a lot of anti-Baha'i sites for some reason. :?


Hmm...well, I guess there is a Satan then... lol! :D

choogue
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Postby choogue » Wed Oct 18, 2006 2:19 pm

Oh i thought Satan did exist in the Bahai faith. (seems like my girlfriend has been feeding me incorrect information again and she is supposed to be a tutor in the Bahai community!!) :?

I now know that Satan was interpreted as evil in the Bahai faith but doesnt the Quran say he was an angel initially?

I dont know, but maybe someone can clarify Surah Araf: (7:11-25)

It is We Who created you. And gave you shape: Then We bade the angels, Prostrate to Adam and they Prostrated, not so Iblis; He refused to be of those Who Prostrate.


(Allah) said: "What prevented thee from prostrating when I commanded thee?" He said: "I am better Than he: Thou didst create me from fire, and him from clay".


(Allah) said: "Get thee down from it : it is not for thee to be arrogant here: get out , for thou art of the meanest "


He (Iblis) said: "give me respite till the day they are raised up"


(Allah) said: "Be thou among those who have respite".


He (Iblis) said: "Because thou has thrown me out (of the way), Lo! I will lie in wait for them on Thy straight way:


"Then will I assault them from before them and behind them , from their right and their left: Nor wilt thou find, in most of them , Gratitude ( for Thy mercies)"


(Allah) said: "Get out from this , despised and expelled. If any of them follow thee,- Hell will I fill with you all.


"O Adam! dwell thou and thy wife in the Garden and enjoy (its good things) As ye wish : but approach not this tree, lest you become of the unjust"


Then began Satan (Iblis) to whisper suggestions to them, in order to reveal to them their shame, that was hidden from them (before). he (Iblis) said: "Your Lord, only forbade this tree , lest you should become angels or such beings as live forever"


And he (Iblis) swore to them both, that he was their sincere adviser.

So by deceit he brought about their fall: When they tasted of the tree, Their shameful parts became manifest to them and they began to sew together the leaves of the garden over their bodies. And their Lord called unto them: "Did I not forbid you that tree, and told you that satan was a avowed enemy unto you?"


They said: "Our Lord , we have wronged our own souls : If thou forgive us not and bestow on us thy mercy, we shall certainly be lost.


(Allah) said: "Get ye down, with enmity between yourselves . On earth will be your dwelling place and a means of livelihood,- for a time".


HE said: "therein shall ye live and therein shall ye die: but from it shall ye be taken out (at last)".


If someone can explain that will be great.

Regards
Abbas

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Postby Baha'i Warrior » Thu Oct 19, 2006 3:44 pm

abbas wrote:Oh i thought Satan did exist in the Bahai faith. (seems like my girlfriend has been feeding me incorrect information again and she is supposed to be a tutor in the Bahai community!!) :?


She might just not know. However, Abbas, you yourself certainly don't need to be a Baha'i to point her to Baha'i sources stating otherwise. Baha'is can always learn from others, especially from educated, investigators after Truth from other Faiths such as yourself.

abbas wrote:I now know that Satan was interpreted as evil in the Bahai faith but doesnt the Quran say he was an angel initially?

I dont know, but maybe someone can clarify Surah Araf: (7:11-25)

....


The Bible talks about Satan, and the Koran refers to many stories in the Bible, along with many biblical beliefs. Think for a moment, how do you teach primitive, Meccan malefactors and their counterparts how bad/good the next life will be? You tell them, hey, if you are bad, you will be consumed by flames, and your flesh will melt off your sinful, little bones. If you are good, you will live forevermore among ever-youthful virgins with big, round, lush brown eyes, etc.; bridal couches, wine, sweet water and fruit will be awaiting those who are steadfast.

But the next life is a spiritual existence, not a material one! If we had physical bodies in the next life (i.e. heaven), we won't need a resurrection here to get our old bodies back! In heaven, the women never get old; here they get old...so why bother coming back? So when the Koran speaks of these things to come in the next life, try to remeber Muhammad's audience consisted of largly uneducated people—especially spiritually uneducated. Those in Jesus' time also had to be taught about the next life through symbolic means, since they (and we) can't even begin to imagine what the next life will be like. If we knew our heads will most likely explode; the next life is purely a spiritual existence, and we are trapped in a material existence and thus are extremely limited in comprehending such things.

So again as 'Abdu'l-Baha explains, Satan and Hell are just symbolic representations of the relativity of how bad the next life will be for sinners. They will be far from God. God is light. Being far from the Light is surely hell; being close to it is ecstasy—much more than even 1,000 damsels could provide! Wherever heaven and hell are mentioned, be it in the Baha'i Writings, the Koran, the Bible, take them as metaphors. Muhammad used symbolic representation because of its convenience; the people at the time were not ready for the kind of explanation given in the Baha'i Texts (by 'Abdu'l-Baha, for instance). In another 1,000 years or so, those people will be prepared for more advanced spiritual knowledge than we presently are. In other words, there are many things Baha'u'llah couldn't tell us because we are too spiritually uneducated or immature to understand them. You don't teach medical school-level histology courses to eighth graders.

choogue
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Postby choogue » Fri Oct 20, 2006 2:36 pm

She might just not know. However, Abbas, you yourself certainly don't need to be a Baha'i to point her to Baha'i sources stating otherwise. Baha'is can always learn from others, especially from educated, investigators after Truth from other Faiths such as yourself.


Yeh i dont think she knows! But thats the thing thats worrying though. She teaches classes at the Bahai centre but she doesnt know much info. Its amazing how they allow her to teach!
Everytime i ask her a question she just avoids it or just doesnt know or in some cases, gives me answers which i find to be wrong. Apparently she teaches the "Ruhi" books and she tells me to join the classes but i keep thinking she needs to be taught a few things before she can teach me! hehe :)

Sometimes i think she is only Bahai because she was born of the faith. She doesnt do any independent research. Seriously, i think i know more than her and ive been studying for like 3 months (maybe a bit more) and she has been Bahai for 22 years! I always encourage her to research more and not to follow blindly and THATS something i quoted to her from the bahai teachings!

Anyway, enough about her....where was i? :oops: Oh yeh....next quote...

The Bible talks about Satan, and the Koran refers to many stories in the Bible, along with many biblical beliefs. Think for a moment, how do you teach primitive, Meccan malefactors and their counterparts how bad/good the next life will be? You tell them, hey, if you are bad, you will be consumed by flames, and your flesh will melt off your sinful, little bones. If you are good, you will live forevermore among ever-youthful virgins with big, round, lush brown eyes, etc.; bridal couches, wine, sweet water and fruit will be awaiting those who are steadfast.


I was under the same impression that the Arabs were primitive during those early times until i watched a documentary on it. Apparently the arabs have brought a lot to society and science. If you can be bothered watching it, here's the link:
http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=7502243539190558658

Its pretty interesting. Basically what im trying to get at is that we may be under the impression they were primitive by the way they used to kill their new born daughters, worshipping idols, etc, but this is what they believed in. In many ways they were not primitive as such.

But the next life is a spiritual existence, not a material one! If we had physical bodies in the next life (i.e. heaven), we won't need a resurrection here to get our old bodies back! In heaven, the women never get old; here they get old...so why bother coming back? So when the Koran speaks of these things to come in the next life, try to remeber Muhammad's audience consisted of largly uneducated people—especially spiritually uneducated. Those in Jesus' time also had to be taught about the next life through symbolic means, since they (and we) can't even begin to imagine what the next life will be like. If we knew our heads will most likely explode; the next life is purely a spiritual existence, and we are trapped in a material existence and thus are extremely limited in comprehending such things.


From my understanding of resurrection from the Christian and Islamic faith is that we all get resurrected so we can be judged for our actions in this life and then leave our bodies and enter the spiritual world. Ofcourse the evil ones will burn in Hell therefore existing in their bodies until their punishment has been completed and travel to Heaven where they are spiritual.

Again, this is based on the beliefs of the interpretation of the Quran which will relate to Hadith, but i dont want to get into that since we are already talking about Hadith in another thread. It all depends on how it is to be interpreted. The reason i placed Surah Araf is because Allah was literally communicating with Iblis. But literally in the Islamic interpretations, and from what you have taught me, the conversation is symbolic in the Bahai interpretations.

Wherever heaven and hell are mentioned, be it in the Baha'i Writings, the Koran, the Bible, take them as metaphors. Muhammad used symbolic representation because of its convenience; the people at the time were not ready for the kind of explanation given in the Baha'i Texts (by 'Abdu'l-Baha, for instance)


I do understand why Bahai would take them as metaphors (because Bahaullah's teachings) but to muslims the Prophet Muhammed (a.s) did not teach us to take them symbolically. The hadiths specifies what is literal or not. (Dont want to get into the Hadiths topic again) :)

I dont know. Do you think that maybe its not meant to be? What i mean is maybe to me Islam is right and it always will be right and therefore cant see where Bahai is coming from? But im scared to think of it like that because what if im wrong, but then again what if im not. Damn!! Its toooooo confusing for me. Maybe i should just stick to what i know! Is it bad to give up in the bahai faith? Or when would you know when to give up?

I can maybe look at it like this (its only a joke so let me know if i should remove it) but anyway.......If i stay muslim and Islam was right then i go to heaven (inshallah) but if i stay muslim and i was wrong, according to the bahai faith i wont get burnt in hell huh? So it cant be that bad? Or is it just wishful thinking? ;)

Regards
Abbas

Zazaban
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Postby Zazaban » Fri Oct 20, 2006 4:33 pm

It's not bad to not be Baha'i. Islam was revealed by god as well. The Qur'an is regocnized by Baha'is to be the only non-Baha'i book not to have been messed with.
Justice and equity are twin Guardians that watch over men. From them are revealed such blessed and perspicuous words as are the cause of the well-being of the world and the protection of the nations.

~ Bahá'u'lláh

choogue
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Postby choogue » Fri Oct 20, 2006 6:15 pm

Oh ok. Thanks for that Zazaban.

But what if i study the Bahai religion and reject its teachings? Would i be punished for it? Thats what sort of freaks me out and wish i just stayed ignorant, but then again if i didnt investigate i would also be punished. So ive sort of put myself in a difficult situation now! :?

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Abbas

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Postby Baha'i Warrior » Sat Oct 21, 2006 2:00 am

abbas wrote:
The Bible talks about Satan, and the Koran refers to many stories in the Bible, along with many biblical beliefs. Think for a moment, how do you teach primitive, Meccan malefactors and their counterparts how bad/good the next life will be? You tell them, hey, if you are bad, you will be consumed by flames, and your flesh will melt off your sinful, little bones. If you are good, you will live forevermore among ever-youthful virgins with big, round, lush brown eyes, etc.; bridal couches, wine, sweet water and fruit will be awaiting those who are steadfast.


I was under the same impression that the Arabs were primitive during those early times until i watched a documentary on it. Apparently the arabs have brought a lot to society and science. If you can be bothered watching it, here's the link:
http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=7502243539190558658


Hmm...I'll watch it sometime (it's long). I'll get back to you later on this. :) Thanks.

abbas wrote:
But the next life is a spiritual existence, not a material one! If we had physical bodies in the next life (i.e. heaven), we won't need a resurrection here to get our old bodies back! In heaven, the women never get old; here they get old...so why bother coming back? So when the Koran speaks of these things to come in the next life, try to remeber Muhammad's audience consisted of largly uneducated people—especially spiritually uneducated. Those in Jesus' time also had to be taught about the next life through symbolic means, since they (and we) can't even begin to imagine what the next life will be like. If we knew our heads will most likely explode; the next life is purely a spiritual existence, and we are trapped in a material existence and thus are extremely limited in comprehending such things.


From my understanding of resurrection from the Christian and Islamic faith is that we all get resurrected so we can be judged for our actions in this life and then leave our bodies and enter the spiritual world. Ofcourse the evil ones will burn in Hell therefore existing in their bodies until their punishment has been completed and travel to Heaven where they are spiritual.


I wonder why God is not able to judge our souls—why He needs our spiritual souls to be placed back into our physical bodies? Aren't our bodies meaningless—just temporary vehicles for the soul? Do our physical bodies make us who we are, or do the spirits (or minds) that quicken or animate us serve that function? Without the soul, the body is dead. Without the body, though, the soul is not dead. Our material existence then depends on the soul, but if we are killed, obviously our souls live on. They live on in the world of the spirit. Why regress from the world of spirit to the inferior existence, this material plane? Because it is written (and interpreted literally by men)? Or maybe it's because God is not able to judge men's souls—He can only judge their souls when they are in the physical bodies? God, the Creator? The All-Mighty? Clearly, as you pointed out in another post, God is not limited. It is only our limited minds that try to place constraints on Him.

Well, Baha'is are beyond the belief in a material, physical heaven and hell. I understand where you are coming from though, this is the popular Islamic belief. But maybe all the resurrection stuff, etc., could be symbolic? One must at least admit it could be, since throughout religious history men have always been waiting for their prophesies to be literally completed, the way the want them to, yet it never seemed to happen that way many times. We could be wrong, of course, but based on your knowledge of previous dispensations, you have to admit that the literal fulfillment of prophesies usually don't come to pass.

abbas wrote:
Wherever heaven and hell are mentioned, be it in the Baha'i Writings, the Koran, the Bible, take them as metaphors. Muhammad used symbolic representation because of its convenience; the people at the time were not ready for the kind of explanation given in the Baha'i Texts (by 'Abdu'l-Baha, for instance)


I do understand why Bahai would take them as metaphors (because Bahaullah's teachings) but to muslims the Prophet Muhammed (a.s) did not teach us to take them symbolically. The hadiths specifies what is literal or not. (Dont want to get into the Hadiths topic again) :)


I think you might agree that there is no way to know for sure 100% if your hadith are really the words of Muhammad. As you noted, some are obviously fabricated. Even the ones that sound like they may be from Muhammad could have been miswritten by fallible men. I'm not saying this is the case, we can't prove it either way. At least this is the Baha'i stance. Since we can say for certain the Koran contains the words of God, we like to refer to those :). But again, yes, we discussed this...

abbas wrote:I dont know. Do you think that maybe its not meant to be? What i mean is maybe to me Islam is right and it always will be right and therefore cant see where Bahai is coming from? But im scared to think of it like that because what if im wrong, but then again what if im not. Damn!! Its toooooo confusing for me. Maybe i should just stick to what i know! Is it bad to give up in the bahai faith? Or when would you know when to give up?


If you mean by Islam always being right as in it will always be the only true religion, then that goes contrary to the Koranic verses and hadith we mentioned. If you as a Muslim are waiting for this messenger, when He comes you have to follow Him—that is Muhammad's command, and the true Muslim will heed that command. I am not trying to tell you Baha'u'llah is—I personally, with my mind and soul, believe He is. But you have to come to the conclusion for yourself as a Muslim. Personally, while I was born a Baha'i, I did have my doubts at some points, but man, after all those years of Christian school as a kid, there's no turning back. I can't go back to using a 486 and abandon my G4 laptop... for you it'd be more of an "upgrade"; for me it'd have been a downgrade. What I mean is, the words of the Bible are so old, feel very ancient....whereas the Baha'i Writings feel "new" and up-to-date, a rather refreshing contrast, at least to me.

When you say:

"Is it bad to give up in the bahai faith? Or when would you know when to give up?"

Again, just speaking as a logical person (not necessarily as a Baha'i): if you find the Baha'i Faith to be false, then yes give it up. But if Muhammad has sent His return, and you reject His return, then is that alright? I'm not trying to make you believe in Baha'u'llah, I'm speaking generally. You should be very sure, take your time. Investigate it for a while if you need to. But be sure.

abbas wrote:I can maybe look at it like this (its only a joke so let me know if i should remove it) but anyway.......If i stay muslim and Islam was right then i go to heaven (inshallah) but if i stay muslim and i was wrong, according to the bahai faith i wont get burnt in hell huh? So it cant be that bad? Or is it just wishful thinking? ;)


No, you wouldn't in that case burn in hell if you made the wrong decision. But you would (according to the Baha'i Writings) for eternity be in a state of eternal remorse, looking at the correct Path that you rejected, or, conversely, the Wrong Path that you misled yourself onto. Now that is true hell, true agony, an eternal burden on the soul.

We don't tell you like some other religions that you have to join us or you will burn in hell. Because how could we prove ourselves right to you anyway? Lift up a mountain with our pinkies? The true miracle, and the only important miracle of the Baha'i revelation, was indeed Baha'u'llah's Words, and how such Words can transform someone by causing him to attain the high spiritual station that God has destined for him—and by causing him to achieve nobility in this material existence as well.

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Postby choogue » Sun Oct 22, 2006 2:12 pm

I wonder why God is not able to judge our souls—why He needs our spiritual souls to be placed back into our physical bodies? Aren't our bodies meaningless—just temporary vehicles for the soul? Do our physical bodies make us who we are, or do the spirits (or minds) that quicken or animate us serve that function? Without the soul, the body is dead. Without the body, though, the soul is not dead. Our material existence then depends on the soul, but if we are killed, obviously our souls live on. They live on in the world of the spirit. Why regress from the world of spirit to the inferior existence, this material plane? Because it is written (and interpreted literally by men)? Or maybe it's because God is not able to judge men's souls—He can only judge their souls when they are in the physical bodies? God, the Creator? The All-Mighty? Clearly, as you pointed out in another post, God is not limited. It is only our limited minds that try to place constraints on Him.


I dont think God is "not able" to judge our souls. As im sure you would agree, God is able to do anything. The reasons why God chooses to do one thing or another is basically up to Him. We only know what God tells us. So its not a question whether He is able to judge our souls or not, but rather a question as to why we are resurrected to be judged.

The following is an example of how God tells us that he is capable of resurrecting us: (again this is relevant to a persons interpretation)

"God begins creation, then He renews it, and after that causes it to return to Him" (30:11).

"Does man imagine that We will not gather together his bones? We are able to recreate even the tips of his fingers" (75:3-4).

I will ask around why God chooses to resurrect us. It will be interesting to find out. Ill let you know my findings.

Well, Baha'is are beyond the belief in a material, physical heaven and hell. I understand where you are coming from though, this is the popular Islamic belief. But maybe all the resurrection stuff, etc., could be symbolic? One must at least admit it could be, since throughout religious history men have always been waiting for their prophesies to be literally completed, the way the want them to, yet it never seemed to happen that way many times. We could be wrong, of course, but based on your knowledge of previous dispensations, you have to admit that the literal fulfillment of prophesies usually don't come to pass


Heaven and Hell exists for the Jews, Christians and Muslims so its not only a popular Islamic belief, but i know what your trying to say.

Yes, Resurrection, Heaven, Hell, Satan, etc could be symbolic. It is what the Prophets taught us about these that the Jews, Christians and Muslims believe it not to be symbolic. Just like the reason the Jews, Christians and Muslims dont take Allah as being symbolic. God forbid, but interpreting the Quran without the Prophets teachings could lead people to think that Allah is just figurative. (Astaghfirullah)

In relation to prophecies, i dont know much about them. The only prophecy that i know of is that muslims will conquer constantinople(which occured in 1453). The only reason i know about this is because i was just recently watching a documentary about Freemasons. So other than that, i cant really comment on them. Do you want me to do some research and let you know?

I think you might agree that there is no way to know for sure 100% if your hadith are really the words of Muhammad. As you noted, some are obviously fabricated. Even the ones that sound like they may be from Muhammad could have been miswritten by fallible men. I'm not saying this is the case, we can't prove it either way. At least this is the Baha'i stance. Since we can say for certain the Koran contains the words of God, we like to refer to those . But again, yes, we discussed this...


Yes i agree that there is no way to know for sure that the Hadith are really the words of Muhammed. But again, we can not know for sure if Messengers of God are really the Messengers of God. We can only study and research which help make our conclusion. Same goes with the Hadith. The ones that contradict the Quran are thrown out and the ones that are written by the infallible men are confirmed by not having any contradictions.

You know what, it would be interesting to find out whether there was or is any Hadiths that contain the teaching of the Prophet Muhammed about the symbolic use in the Quran. For example whether the resurrection was not literal. Ofcourse we have to look at the fabricated ones aswell because if Muslims dont believe it to be symbolic, i guess they would of classed the hadiths as a contradiction. Ill find out and let you know.

If you mean by Islam always being right as in it will always be the only true religion, then that goes contrary to the Koranic verses and hadith we mentioned. If you as a Muslim are waiting for this messenger, when He comes you have to follow Him—that is Muhammad's command, and the true Muslim will heed that command.


We believe that the Mahdi will come but to us he is not a Messenger of Allah but rather a Messenger, an Imam. We believe that Imam Mahdi (12th Imam) went into occultation and will not come back as a Prophet. And from my knowledge i dont think it actually says anywhere about the Mahdi in the Quran (ill find out) but rather the Hadith. This is why i was saying it was important to refer to Hadith which is why i took an interest in Bahai to investigate whether the prophecies in the Hadith have come true.

Ill actually confirm though whether we believe that Imam Mahdi will come back as a Prophet or just an Imam(messenger). From what i remember though, im pretty sure he was meant to be only a messenger. Ill confirm.

Again, just speaking as a logical person (not necessarily as a Baha'i): if you find the Baha'i Faith to be false, then yes give it up. But if Muhammad has sent His return, and you reject His return, then is that alright? I'm not trying to make you believe in Baha'u'llah, I'm speaking generally. You should be very sure, take your time. Investigate it for a while if you need to. But be sure.


No its not alright to reject his return. This is why im scared to reject the Bahai faith and then again scared to accept it. But as you say, i need to take my time and be sure. Why does it have to be so difficult!!! :cry:

Regards
Abbas

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Postby Baha'i Warrior » Mon Oct 23, 2006 11:46 am

abbas wrote:
I wonder why God is not able to judge our souls—why He needs our spiritual souls to be placed back into our physical bodies? Aren't our bodies meaningless—just temporary vehicles for the soul? Do our physical bodies make us who we are, or do the spirits (or minds) that quicken or animate us serve that function? Without the soul, the body is dead. Without the body, though, the soul is not dead. Our material existence then depends on the soul, but if we are killed, obviously our souls live on. They live on in the world of the spirit. Why regress from the world of spirit to the inferior existence, this material plane? Because it is written (and interpreted literally by men)? Or maybe it's because God is not able to judge men's souls—He can only judge their souls when they are in the physical bodies? God, the Creator? The All-Mighty? Clearly, as you pointed out in another post, God is not limited. It is only our limited minds that try to place constraints on Him.


I dont think God is "not able" to judge our souls. As im sure you would agree, God is able to do anything. The reasons why God chooses to do one thing or another is basically up to Him. We only know what God tells us. So its not a question whether He is able to judge our souls or not, but rather a question as to why we are resurrected to be judged.


Absolutely.

abbas wrote:The following is an example of how God tells us that he is capable of resurrecting us: (again this is relevant to a persons interpretation)

"God begins creation, then He renews it, and after that causes it to return to Him" (30:11).

"Does man imagine that We will not gather together his bones? We are able to recreate even the tips of his fingers" (75:3-4).

I will ask around why God chooses to resurrect us. It will be interesting to find out. Ill let you know my findings.


Yes, I am aware of those verses. And yes, God can do whatever He wants. Indeed, Sura LXXV, titled "The Resurrection," goes into quite a bit of detail about this resurrection.

But you have to consider this. Who were Muhammad's audience at the time? They were polytheists who had a hard time grasping the concept of one God. How much so the concept of a world of spirit? This resurrection, if it is to be interpreted literally, poses a problem. Doesn't the Koran say there will be material things awaiting us in heaven, namely, sweet water, fruit, wine, Houri, etc.? How can you—while the resurrection has not occured—be enjoying the pleasures of the flesh without your body? Isn't it kind of hard to take advantage of those nice things God has rewarded you with if you do not have a corporeal body?

So here is an alternate explanation, an explanation which would resolve the contradiction. Wine, fruit, women, etc., are used to symbolize the ecstasy that is accompanied with nearness to God, whereas hell-fire, thirst ("And ye shall drink as the thirsty camel drinketh"), boiling water, bitter fruit, blackening flesh, etc., represent the agony, spiritual thirst, spiritual hunger, and spiritual pain that one possesses who is far from God.

Ask yourself: which would be a worse punishment? Being scorched with fire and never having your thirst quenched, or forever being removed from God, gelid from the lack of the warmth of His presence?

As to our spiritual counterparts who lived 1,000 years ago, were they able to grasp the concept that we truly cannot know what will happen in the next life, except for some clues? These same people who worshipped pieces of wood in the Kaaba? The next world, the Baha'i Writings clearly state, is a spiritual existence, and it is man's shortcoming to attribute material aspects (from his knowledge of this life) to the next one. The mentioned verses Muhammad revealed did two important things I think. (1) They explained how "good" and "bad" the next life will be for the godly and the sinners, respectively. (2) The essence of what He said, though He makes material analogies, nevertheless contains spiritual truths that can be with spiritual insight discerned—and much of this spiritual insight is conveniently provided for us via the Baha'i Writings. However, now that in this Day man has attained a higher level of spiritual capacity than his former adherents of the previous Dispensations, Baha'u'llah and 'Abdu'l-Baha take spirituality to the next level—they give us the guidance that we need from here, just as a child who completes sixth grade needs to be advanced to the seventh grade (spiritually we are all still infantile souls, and need the continued guidance of our Father). It is made clear by 'Abdu'l-Baha in this excerpt from Some Answered Questions that our souls, being spiritual, depend on a spiritual existence (and thus it would be rather pointless for our souls to reunite with our bodies after death):

    You question about eternal life and the entrance into the Kingdom. The outer expression used for the Kingdom is heaven; but this is a comparison and similitude, not a reality or fact, for the Kingdom is not a material place; it is sanctified from time and place. It is a spiritual world, a divine world, and the center of the Sovereignty of God; it is freed from body and that which is corporeal, and it is purified and sanctified from the imaginations of the human world. To be limited to place is a property of bodies and not of spirits. Place and time surround the body, not the mind and spirit. Observe that the body of man is confined to a small place; it covers only two spans of earth. But the spirit and mind of man travel to all countries and regions—even through the limitless space of the heavens—surround all that exists, and make discoveries in the exalted spheres and infinite distances. This is because the spirit has no place; it is placeless; and for the spirit the earth and the heaven are as one since it makes discoveries in both. But the body is limited to a place and does not know that which is beyond it.

    Source (for a more detailed treatment of this topic by 'Abdu'l-Baha): http://www.bahai-library.com/writings/abdulbaha/saq/67.html

abbas wrote:
Well, Baha'is are beyond the belief in a material, physical heaven and hell. I understand where you are coming from though, this is the popular Islamic belief. But maybe all the resurrection stuff, etc., could be symbolic? One must at least admit it could be, since throughout religious history men have always been waiting for their prophesies to be literally completed, the way the want them to, yet it never seemed to happen that way many times. We could be wrong, of course, but based on your knowledge of previous dispensations, you have to admit that the literal fulfillment of prophesies usually don't come to pass


Heaven and Hell exists for the Jews, Christians and Muslims so its not only a popular Islamic belief, but i know what your trying to say.

Yes, Resurrection, Heaven, Hell, Satan, etc could be symbolic. It is what the Prophets taught us about these that the Jews, Christians and Muslims believe it not to be symbolic. Just like the reason the Jews, Christians and Muslims dont take Allah as being symbolic. God forbid, but interpreting the Quran without the Prophets teachings could lead people to think that Allah is just figurative. (Astaghfirullah)

In relation to prophecies, i dont know much about them. The only prophecy that i know of is that muslims will conquer constantinople(which occured in 1453). The only reason i know about this is because i was just recently watching a documentary about Freemasons. So other than that, i cant really comment on them. Do you want me to do some research and let you know?


Let me clarify what I said. Yes, some literal prophesies do come to pass, but certain ones never do or never will—and these (miraculous prophesies) are the ones I was referring to. The obvious examples of prophesies that are never materially realized—to Baha'is anyway—being the miraculous circumstances surrounding the return of a Prophet. For Christians, Jesus coming down on clouds, the apocalypse, war with satan, and resurrection; for Muslims the literal day of judgement and literal resurrection; and for the jews—the symbolic fulfillment of their Messiah's return, just to name a few. I'm referring to the "biggies" that that the followers of different religions are awaiting for—grandiose, miraculous events accompanying the Prophet's Return. These never happen, and such prophesies should be interpreted symbolically by someone who is trying to seek the Truth. This isn't necessarily my opinion as a Baha'i—just look at religious history and you will see what I'm saying. God doesn't work in the way that men want Him to work. Though generations of men continually insist that God has to materially fulfill their prophesies (they have scriptures to back up their claims)—so much so that when He sends them their awaited Messenger, they persecute and kill Him—nevertheless the Message is received and spread by some noble and steadfast souls. Later on, men realize what they had done to their beloved Messenger when it is too late. Indeed, the last Words spoken by the Bab before His execution (along with a youth) by the regiment were these immortalized Words:

"Had you believed in Me, O wayward generation, every one of you would have followed the example of this youth, who stood in rank above most of you, and willingly would have sacrificed himself in My path. The day will come when you will have recognised Me; that day I shall have ceased to be with you."

Source: http://www.bahai-library.com/books/dawnbreakers/chapters/23.html#513a

abbas wrote:
I think you might agree that there is no way to know for sure 100% if your hadith are really the words of Muhammad. As you noted, some are obviously fabricated. Even the ones that sound like they may be from Muhammad could have been miswritten by fallible men. I'm not saying this is the case, we can't prove it either way. At least this is the Baha'i stance. Since we can say for certain the Koran contains the words of God, we like to refer to those . But again, yes, we discussed this...


Yes i agree that there is no way to know for sure that the Hadith are really the words of Muhammed. But again, we can not know for sure if Messengers of God are really the Messengers of God. We can only study and research which help make our conclusion. Same goes with the Hadith. The ones that contradict the Quran are thrown out and the ones that are written by the infallible men are confirmed by not having any contradictions.


But if we do recognize the Messenger of God and His book, and there is a general unanimity in that He is a Messenger, that the Koran is His Book, etc., we still cannot state with 100% certainty that this Man—who we believe to be a Messenger—said/didn't certain recorded utterances—words outside the Koran and reported by someone else.

But I know you understand the Baha'i position, and I do admit that if the hadith are in conformity with the Writings of the Koran, there is a good chance that they are authentic, and by all means please use hadith if you find them helpful. The Writings do address hadith as you pointed out, as proofs.

abbas wrote:You know what, it would be interesting to find out whether there was or is any Hadiths that contain the teaching of the Prophet Muhammed about the symbolic use in the Quran. For example whether the resurrection was not literal. Ofcourse we have to look at the fabricated ones aswell because if Muslims dont believe it to be symbolic, i guess they would of classed the hadiths as a contradiction. Ill find out and let you know.


Yes, maybe investigate some hadith. I'm sure there could be at least something out there hinting at the symolism. But you don't necessarily need the hadith to see that it is symbolic . The explanation given by Baha'u'llah should be satisfactory (I take it you are reading the Iqan?) But I suggest you first read the Iqan then come to the conlusion for yourself. For you, as a Muslim seeker, it is a very important book. In fact, Baha'u'llah refers to the Iqan as the "Lord of Books."

abbas wrote:
If you mean by Islam always being right as in it will always be the only true religion, then that goes contrary to the Koranic verses and hadith we mentioned. If you as a Muslim are waiting for this messenger, when He comes you have to follow Him—that is Muhammad's command, and the true Muslim will heed that command.


We believe that the Mahdi will come but to us he is not a Messenger of Allah but rather a Messenger, an Imam. We believe that Imam Mahdi (12th Imam) went into occultation and will not come back as a Prophet. And from my knowledge i dont think it actually says anywhere about the Mahdi in the Quran (ill find out) but rather the Hadith. This is why i was saying it was important to refer to Hadith which is why i took an interest in Bahai to investigate whether the prophecies in the Hadith have come true.[/i]


Your Mahdi has returned as the Bab. :)

abbas wrote:Ill actually confirm though whether we believe that Imam Mahdi will come back as a Prophet or just an Imam(messenger). From what i remember though, im pretty sure he was meant to be only a messenger. Ill confirm.


I think you might be confusing some terms. "Rasul" means Prophet or Messenger. Both Messenger/Prophet are interchangeable terms, and both are sent by God. Your friend you ask questions (the clergyman) is just assigning narrow meaning to the word, and his position is certainly not the popular Muslims belief as no such distinction is made. It would be like someone saying "Messenger" with a capital "M" means a lesser prophet or some preacher who is not sent by God (not a prophet of God), whereas "Messenger of God" means prophet or a Man sent by God. Or "Prophet" vs. "Prophet of God." Who else sends Prophets? You will get confused, I believe, if you ask your clergymen for answers. If you want to understand Baha'u'llah (and the Koran itself) better, then the Iqan will really help you out in this regard. Like you said yourself, you are learning more about the Koran through your study of the Baha'i Writings. And also, go to the Koran (and hadith) yourself and look to see if any such distinctions are made (if there aren't, then who is a clergyman to tell you what Muhammad meant by His verses? Are your clergymen sent by God, and their words in total and absolute conformity with His Words?). If you ask your clergymen, they might give you explanations which will only lead to astray (partly out of ignorance and also partly out out of ulterior motives). The Rabbis as I said before in the time of Jesus kept many Jews from recognizing Jesus. They have motives for doing so. Religious leaders from all religions today are doing the same, as you will see yourself in the Iqan (Baha'u'llah addresses this issue there). Don't get me wrong, I'm not speaking about your friend specificially, but speaking more generally. I'm saying you should be cautious, and when you are given an explanation, go to your Source (Koran mostly, and hadith) and see for yourself. Don't let others interpret for you what Muhammad said. The Koran was revealed for you to read and for you to understand. And first, before receiving explanations, you should be firm in your knowledge (preferably more than rudimentary knowledge) so that you will readily be ale to recognize if an explanation makes sense or not.

abbas wrote:
Again, just speaking as a logical person (not necessarily as a Baha'i): if you find the Baha'i Faith to be false, then yes give it up. But if Muhammad has sent His return, and you reject His return, then is that alright? I'm not trying to make you believe in Baha'u'llah, I'm speaking generally. You should be very sure, take your time. Investigate it for a while if you need to. But be sure.


No its not alright to reject his return. This is why im scarred to reject the Bahai faith and then again scarred to accept it. But as you say, i need to take my time and be sure. Why does it have to be so difficult!!! :cry:


This prayer by Baha'u'llah might provide you with some consolation, inspiration, and insight regarding your concern. Try praying it and see if you feel like it addresses your issue (which many others struggle with):

    Glory to Thee, O my God! But for the tribulations which are sustained in Thy path, how could Thy true lovers be recognized; and were it not for the trials which are borne for love of Thee, how could the station of such as yearn for Thee be revealed? Thy might beareth me witness! The companions of all who adore Thee are the tears they shed, and the comforters of such as seek Thee are the groans they utter, and the food of them who haste to meet Thee is the fragments of their broken hearts.

    How sweet to my taste is the bitterness of death suffered in Thy path, and how precious in my estimation are the shafts of Thine enemies when encountered for the sake of the exaltation of Thy word! Let me quaff in Thy Cause, O my God, whatsoever Thou didst desire, and send down upon me in Thy love all Thou didst ordain. By Thy glory! I wish only what Thou wishest, and cherish what Thou cherishest. In Thee have I, at all times, placed my whole trust and confidence.

    Raise up, I implore Thee, O my God, as helpers to this Revelation such as shall be counted worthy of Thy name and of Thy sovereignty, that they may remember me among Thy cretures, and hoist the ensigns of Thy victory in Thy land.

    Potent art Thou to do what pleaseth Thee. No God is there but Thee, the Help in Peril, the Self-Subsisting.

    —Bahá'u'lláh


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