Seal of Prophets

[Truth seaker]

Hi there, you are really wonderful. and i really enjoy following your discussions.
Well, am a new truth seaker and am trying my best God willing!! i will get at some valuable conclusion.

I have one queston thoug. Latelly i was reading the Quran, and came to the word "Seal of Prophets". Would any one care to share some thing about this verse, especially with reference to Bahi faith please.
I mean some more info. on the point which Bahaullah mentioned on the subject. More clariffication would be awsome.
Thanx a lot!![/quote]

[Baha'i Warrior]

From the Kitab-i-Iqan:

"How strange! These people with one hand cling to those verses of the Qur'án and those traditions of the people of certitude which they have found to accord with their inclinations and interests, and with the other reject those which are contrary to their selfish desires. "Believe ye then part of the Book, and deny part?"1 How could ye judge that which ye understand not? Even as the Lord of being hath in His unerring Book, after speaking of the "Seal" in His exalted utterance: "Muhammad is the Apostle of God and the Seal of the Prophets,"2 hath revealed unto all people the promise of "attainment unto the divine Presence." To this attainment to the presence of the immortal King testify the verses of the Book, some of which We have already mentioned. The one true God is My witness! Nothing more exalted or more explicit than "attainment unto the divine Presence" hath been revealed in the Qur'án. Well is it with him that hath attained thereunto, in the day wherein most of the people, even as ye witness, have turned away therefrom."


So, 4 verses after the Seal of the Prophets quote, it says something like
"On the day they shall meet Him, their greeting shall be peace." But it is impossible to meet God. So then, it must mean that on that day refers to the next Manifestation of God. So that is proof that someone will come after Muhammad. Baha'u'llah makes a very brilliant argument. Tell this to a Muslim and he will be speechless (hopefully)!

[Baha'i Warrior]

Referring to this quote:

"And yet, through the mystery of the former verse, they have turned away from the grace promised by the latter, despite the fact that "attainment unto the divine Presence" in the "Day of Resurrection" is explicitly stated in the Book. It hath been demonstrated and definitely established, through clear evidences, that by "Resurrection" is meant the rise of the Manifestation of God to proclaim His Cause, and by "attainment unto the divine Presence" is meant attainment unto the presence of His Beauty in the person of His Manifestation. For verily, "No vision taketh in Him, but He taketh in all vision." [Qur’an 6:103.] Notwithstanding all these indubitable facts and lucid statements, they have foolishly clung to the term "seal," and remained utterly deprived of the recognition of Him Who is the Revealer of both the Seal and the Beginning, in the day of His presence. "If God should chastise men for their perverse doings, He would not leave upon the earth a moving thing! But to an appointed time doth He respite them." [Qur’an 16:61.] But apart from all these things, had this people attained unto a drop of the crystal streams flowing from the words: "God doeth whatsoever He willeth, and ordaineth whatsoever He pleaseth," they would not have raised any unseemly cavils, such as these, against the focal Center of His Revelation. "


So Baha'u'llah brilliantly argues that the quote: For verily, "No vision taketh in Him, but He taketh in all vision." [Qur’an 6:103.] is proof that we cannot see God on that day..

So, how can we meet God on that day? This quote happens so soon after the Seal of the Prophets quote. So if it is not referring to God, then it must be referring to the next Manifestation of God, because we cant see God

[Hasan]

Hi,

With Muhammad the Prophetic circle (Adamic) culminates, I think this is one meaning of “Seal of Prophets”.

Adan, (initiator of Adamic circle, 6000 years).
Muhammad, (culminates Prophetic period).
The Báb, (beginning of new Era, fulfillment Era), the Primal Point, the King of Prophets.
Bahá’u’lláh, (realization of all Prophets, the inaugurator of a New huge Circle).

[Hossein]

Hi
There are two words in arabic: "Nabi" نبی which means prophet, and "Rasul" which means messenger رسول.
The Prophet has no Book (holy book, scripture or new rules) and no followers (as the prophets in Jewish history), But a messenger, like Moses, Jesus and Mohammad, have brought a new book, new rules, and they have new followers or believers.
The "Seal of the Prophets" in surih 33, verse 39 in the Quran, talk about prophets and not messengers.
The station of a messenger is higher than that of a prophet, by this I mean that a messenger at the same time is also a prophet.

I stop here. hope it will help you.

[Hasan]

Thanks, Hossein, 'Abdu'l-Bahá says there is two kinds of Prophets.

Question. -- How many kinds of Prophets are there?

Answer. -- Universally, the Prophets are of two kinds. One are the independent Prophets Who are followed; the other kind are not independent and are themselves followers.

The independent Prophets are the lawgivers and the founders of a new cycle. Through Their appearance the world puts on a new garment, the foundations of religion are established, and a new book is revealed. Without an intermediary They receive bounty from the Reality of the Divinity, and Their illumination is an essential illumination. They are like the sun which is luminous in itself: the light is its essential necessity; it does not receive light from any other star. These Dawning-places of the morn of Unity are the sources of bounty and the mirrors of the Essence of Reality.

The other Prophets are followers and promoters, for they are branches and not independent; they receive the bounty of the independent Prophets, and they profit by the light of the Guidance of the universal Prophets. They are like the moon, which is not luminous and radiant in itself, but receives its light from the sun.

(Abdu'l-Baha, Some Answered Questions, p. 164)

[Hossein]

dear hasan
Yes. By "independent Prophets", Abdul-baha means "Rasul" رسول, and by "The other Prophets" he means "Nabi" نبی.
In surih 22 verse 52 in the Quran (sorry I do not have it in english), we read:
و ما ارسلنا من قبلک من رسول و لا نبی
From this verse, the difference between prophet and messenger is clear.

[Truth seeker]

Thanx a lot guys for your great responses !!
But i also want to make my self clear with one thing which the Muslims claim to have "Verse" in Hadith talking about Mohammed being the last Messenger. All i want t o know is coz i have a friend of mine who really is interested in the Bahai faith but when it comes to the explanations from Bahais with regard to the "Seal of Prophets", he is really confused. And i think he was talking to some Muslim scholar and got this verse from Hadith.(am gonna try to write the verse in my own explanation)
" Mohammed is like a Brich stone who fits a who in a wall and after his filling the hole in the wall, we have no need to get another revelation or Messenger to perfect the faith"

Any one knows about the verse or how do explain the verses or the book of Hadith?
Thanx again
Sorry if my English is not clear (ESL guy)

[Hossein]

This is not something new
Jesus said I am alpha and Omega, right? If a muslim can explain that, so we have no problem

[Keyvan]

when you say there is a difference between NABI(prophet) and RASUL(messenger)

Muslims will say, oh but every Rasul is a Nabi, but not every Nabi is a Rasul

that is easily disproven because there are a few Prophets that are refered to as RASUL but never referred to as NABI

Saleh and Hud are good examples of this


that rules out why RASUL(messenger) is NOT SEALED OFF

but there is even a part where another RASUL is FORETOLD


The Surah of Hud is a Surah all about how RASUL were rejected byt he peopel in their time and place. and how it was wrong for hte people to reject them and it ended up catastrophic for the people in the end

towards the end of the Surah it says


120. All that We relate to thee of the stories of the apostles -- with it We make firm thy heart: in them there cometh to thee the Truth, as well as an exhortation and a message of remembrance to those who believe.
(The Qur'an (Yusuf Ali tr), Surah 11)


there is no other possible meaning to that quote, and thus, the whole surah which the quote says why that surah is there, than that another RASUL will come

i have told this to Muslims all over. no Muslim has ever been able to produce an alternative meaning to this. they always change the subject. some do say that all it means is that it was for the pagans of the time, to warn them and instruct them to accept Muhammad.
but this is untrue because it very clearly says "to those who believe" or "for the believers" depending on the translation

[Hossein]

Dear Keyvan Hi

The verse (surah 22 verse 52) in arabic is:

و ما ارسلنا من قبلک من رسول و لا نبی

And in english:

We did not send before you any
messenger, nor a prophet, without
having the devil interfere in his
wishes. GOD then nullifies what the
devil has done. GOD perfects His
revelations. GOD is Omniscient,
Most Wise.

If there was not difference between a prophet and a messenger the verse after a correct arabic grammatic should be like that:

و ما ارسلنا من قبلک من رسول و نبی

You (I mean everybody who is interested) should know arabic grammer. In arabic grammer there is a rule called معطوف and معطوف علیه, (Referred to, or related to) and the word ارسلنا (send) is referred to (معطوف علیه) Rasul (a messeneger), this is difficult for me to explain in english. Plaese find the explanation in english about this rule.
If I say: keyvan and Keyvan came. so we are not talking about the same keyvan, here is difference between first keyvan and second keyvan otherwise I just need to say: Keyvan came.


There is also a hadith:
people aksed Muhammad about the numbers of prophets and he answered there are 124000. and then they asked him how many among them has been messengers? He ansswered 313.
If there was no difference, Muhammad did not answered in this way.

[Truth Seeker]

Hi there,
I was sudying the Verse it self. And it seemed to give me the following sense.
I think when God revealed the verse He revealed it in defence for Mohammad(pbuh) coz the people were acusing Him of his marriage after the death of his wife and from the writings a bit above the specific verse, you see that the people were having a huge argument about Mohammad. Then God kind of worned them what the station of Mohammad(pbuh) was Devine by revealing the verse:
"Mohammad is not the father of any man Among you, but he is a Messenger of God and the Seal of Prophets".
This really gives a devine station to Mohammad(pbuh) above which the people were argueng about Mohammad which was worldly.

[Guest]

One of the most evident proofs in the Holy Quran regarding the appearance of another revelation and which has been completely ignored by the masses is the last five verses of the 50th Surah Qaf,

41 وَاسْتَمِعْ يَوْمَ يُنَادِ الْمُنَادِ مِن مَّكَانٍ قَرِيبٍ

42 يَوْمَ يَسْمَعُونَ الصَّيْحَةَ بِالْحَقِّ ذَلِكَ يَوْمُ الْخُرُوجِ

43 إِنَّا نَحْنُ نُحْيِي وَنُمِيتُ وَإِلَيْنَا الْمَصِيرُ

44 يَوْمَ تَشَقَّقُ الْأَرْضُ عَنْهُمْ سِرَاعًا ذَلِكَ حَشْرٌ عَلَيْنَا يَسِيرٌ

45 نَحْنُ أَعْلَمُ بِمَا يَقُولُونَ وَمَا أَنتَ عَلَيْهِم بِجَبَّارٍ فَذَكِّرْ بِالْقُرْآنِ مَن يَخَافُ وَعِيدِ

41 And listen on the Day when the caller will call from a near place,

42 The Day when they will hear As-Saihah (shout, etc.) in truth, that will be the Day of coming out (from darkness i.e. the Day of Resurrection).

43 Verily, We it is Who give life and cause death; and to Us is the final return,

44 On the Day when the earth shall be cleft, from off them, (they will come out) hastening forth. That will be a gathering, quite easy for Us.

45 We know of best what they say; and you (O Muhammad ) are not a tyrant over them (to force them to Belief). But warn by the Qur'an, him who fears My Threat.

The simplified translation of the 41st ayat is, 'And listen to the Day when the caller (God's Messenger) will call from a near place (close to the Holy land of Hijaz which is currently and erroneously named as Saudi Arabia).

This is ample proof to a child; however, Muslims just read the Holy Furqan (Criterion) without perusing it or pondering upon its enlightening content.

Loving Baha'i regards,
Jamal

[Keyvan]

yeah. to reiterate, we can find many meanings, sure, but i believe the big one, that "seal of the Prophets" in and of itself closes off Prophets(nabi) and not Messengers(rasul).

Rasul = Messengers = Greater Order of Prophets

The independent Prophets are the lawgivers and the founders of a new cycle. Through Their appearance the world puts on a new garment, the foundations of religion are established, and a new book is revealed. Without an intermediary They receive bounty from the Reality of the Divinity, and Their illumination is an essential illumination. They are like the sun which is luminous in itself: the light is its essential necessity; it does not receive light from any other star. These Dawning-places of the morn of Unity are the sources of bounty and the mirrors of the Essence of Reality.
(Abdu'l-Baha, Some Answered Questions, p. 163)

Nabi = Prophets =Lesser Order of Prophets

The other Prophets are followers and promoters, for they are branches and not independent; they receive the bounty of the independent Prophets, and they profit by the light of the Guidance of the universal Prophets. They are like the moon, which is not luminous and radiant in itself, but receives its light from the sun.
(Abdu'l-Baha, Some Answered Questions, p. 163)


Quran 33:40 khattam-aw-nabiwwan

some Bahai books by scholors, not authoritative text, include compilations of claims raised by ahmaddiya muslims that say "khatam" actually means jewel or ornament of theprophets

i think thats weak, kind of a stretch, and not true. so for anyone who runs into that, if my two cents counts for anything, id say pass over that.

the most compelling thing by far saying that another Rasul (messenger; greater prophet) will come, i believe, is THE SURAH OF HUD. just look. an ENTIRE SURAH designed to prepare people for The Bab and Baha'u'llah. there is NO OTHER MEANING.

i did not read that in any book. Dr. Moojan Momen explained to me, and since then, every time i explained to a Muslim, they always change the subject. lol

so i would say spread that to anyone and everyone, there is no counterarguement. they may say 11:120 means He is speaking to unbelievers, but it says right there "believers"

[majnun]

dear friends:

Instead of turning around in your heads
with interpreting old verses of the Qur'an,
you should all focus on Baha'u'llah's scriptures,
and forget old ways transmited by ma and pa.

Leave the Qur'an where it belongs : in the past.

MJ.

[Keyvan]

Majnun, please stop contradicting the will of the Guardian

Shoghi Effendi wishes me to express his deepfelt appreciation of your intention to study the Qur'án. The knowledge of the revealed holy Book is, indeed, indispensable to every Bahá'í who wishes to adequately understand the Writings of Bahá'u'lláh. And in view of that the Guardian has been invariably encouraging the friends to make as thorough a study of this Book as possible, particularly in their summer schools. Sale's translation is the most scholarly we have, but Rodwell's version is more literary, and hence easier for reading.

(From a letter dated 23 November 1934 written on behalf of Shoghi Effendi to an individual believer)

[majnun]

.
This is not written by Shogi himself.
You may enjoy Rashad's in English,
much better than Sales or Rodwell.

Like christianity, islam is now a dead
religion. It seems you, and many others
do not accept that fact, because of your
family background, and you enjoy depriving
yourself of the ocean to prefer a little pond filled
with used water.

Talking and discussing about the interpretation
of old obsolete scriptures just keeps you from
advancing into Baha'u'llah's ocean.
How sad.

MJ.

[Truth Seeker]

Hi Majnun,
Actually i don't agree with you because when ever some body is trying to understand about the religions of the world, i think it will only benefit him. and remember there are also Bahais of other religious background as i am . And when ever they come across Bahaullah's writting for the first time, the first thing they will ask is the credibility of the Quran, coz Bahai writtings tell us that Islam was one of the religions of God. So for a christian to understand the Bahai writings, i think reading the Quran is one of the best ways to understand Bahaullah's message. I my self, for instance, when i first heard about Bahaullah's Message the first thing i wanted to know was the writtings of the Quran. So from my experience and also other people's, i think studying the other religions of the world is also a great help.
And one more reminder if you don't mind, You are changing the mood of the discussion here with your comentaries. This topic was raised so that it can help some of us to explain the Bahai teachings to Moslems.
Thanx a lot

[Guest]

Who is monitoring this forum?
Majnun's persistent attack on Islam causes far more damage to the Baha'i faith than anything else. This is a serious affront on not only our parent religion but Baha'u'llah, the Bab, Abdul Baha and the guardian.
This ought to cease sooner rather than later.

Jamal

[Jonah]

I'm reading it. What do others think, should this thread be closed? Or left open?

Jonah, webmaster

[Baha'i Warrior]

Majnun is somewhat right. We read in the Guardian's World Order of Baha'u'llah that the Islamic and Christian institutions are crumbling down. Islam is particularly going to suffer harsher consequences because of what it did to the Baha'is. There is a famous quote from Baha'u'llah but I believe it is untranslated: "We have taken the glory from Islam, and abasement from Isreal." It is something to that effect (anyone know where it is located?) Also, in Gleanings, Baha'u'llah does say that today all Islamic and Christian divines are engaged in corruption and perversion of the Texts (He doesn't make any exceptions.)
However, not only did Shoghi Effendi call the Kitab-i-Iqan Baha'u'llah's most important book (besides the Aqdas), but Baha'u'llah Himself referred to it as the "Lord of Books." The Iqan is an Islamic commentary. To understand Baha'u'llah, you need to first understand Islam. That means if you are not familiar with the Koran, and hadith, you must study them. You have to know the Islamic (Shia) context out of which the Baha'i Faith emerged. This is a simple fact, and we have the Writings to prove this. There is really no need to argue. If a Baha'i wants to think a certain way, let him. But we have the Writings in front of us.

Like I have said before: look at past dispensations: Hinduism and Buddhism for example. Don't these two religions have a lot in common (in terms of terminology, beliefs, etc.)? Or even Christianity, did they not keep the Old Testament and add to it a New one?

[Truth Seeker]

Actually, my main reason to start this discussion topic was just to get some ideas about the "Seal of Prophets" and what i needed was just any kind of explanations which could make my encounters with my Muslim friends easier and i got very many rich informations and sittings. Thanx a lot guys!!
But now i kinda totally agree with Jamal for the end of the topic


HOwever, i have one thing to remind Majnun of, before i go and that's if you can't give or doesn't have any thing to say i think the best way is to observe from afar because the responses you gave were not really helpfull rather diminished the spirit of discussion. Here we were only discussing. Your way of talking and responding can give a differet impretion about the Bahai Faith and Bahaullah to people of other faith who are following the discussion.(Just a Loving Bahai friends coment)


Thanx

[Jonah]

Thanks for your query, BTW! I should have posted this at the very beginning, but did you search our site? I know there are a few articles and one thesis online about this topic. Browse http://www.google.com/custom?q=seal+of+ ... ibrary.com . The thesis is at http://bahai-library.com/?file=lundberg ... alypticism . I don't recall if this thesis explicitly addresses "seal of the prophets," but that concept is directly related.

-Jonah

[Hossein]

Hi
I can not find any reason to close this topic.
People have different idea (after their knowledge) and this can not be the reason that other people stop talking/writing.
The station of each Massanger of God for Bahá'ís is clear, specially station of Muhammad (s).

Hereby I want to add some lines that we can continue the topic.
We know each massanger, manifest and words of God is, The beginning and the end, it is The First and The Last, it Was and Is, it Existed and Exist and "Will Excist".
Let me give you an example. If I say to you I have a brand new mercedes and it is a last model I have right, because in this time, this is a last model, but next year the company will make the Last model again and make it better and develope it.

Have a nice time

[Guest]

I was ony observing the discussion from out side and basically i am a Moslem and i got a Bahai friend who is always tring to explaing the "Seal of Prophets" Well my Questoins is basic but i think it creas a bit of a confussion fro a Moslem.
As Bahis say the Sel only signifies to Mohammed being the last of the Prophets but not Messengers. From Some Answered Questions by Abdul Baha, he says that a Messenger also is a Prophet(But am not sure which part but i think i've read it once and also my friend' told me). If this is the case and Bahaullah is a Messenger, it tells me that he is also a Prophet. But still we are saying that the line of Prophethood has ended. Doesn't this create a confussion or is there any other explanation to this?
I'd really Appreciate ur response.
Peace.

[Baha'i Warrior]

I was ony observing the discussion from out side and basically i am a Moslem and i got a Bahai friend who is always tring to explaing the "Seal of Prophets" Well my Questoins is basic but i think it creas a bit of a confussion fro a Moslem.
As Bahis say the Sel only signifies to Mohammed being the last of the Prophets but not Messengers. From Some Answered Questions by Abdul Baha, he says that a Messenger also is a Prophet(But am not sure which part but i think i've read it once and also my friend' told me). If this is the case and Bahaullah is a Messenger, it tells me that he is also a Prophet. But still we are saying that the line of Prophethood has ended. Doesn't this create a confussion or is there any other explanation to this?
I'd really Appreciate ur response.
Peace.

The Bab ended the prophetic cycle and He inaugurated the cycle of fulfillment. Muhammad was technically the last Prophet (hence seal of the Prophets), even though Baha'is may loosely refer to the Bab and Baha'u'llah as prophets. They are Messengers of God. The function of all the Prophets was to foretell the coming of the Baha’u’llah.

[Guest]

The Bab ended the prophetic cycle and He inaugurated the cycle of fulfillment. Muhammad was technically the last Prophet (hence seal of the Prophets), even though Baha'is may loosely refer to the Bab and Baha'u'llah as prophets. They are Messengers of God. The function of all the Prophets was to foretell the coming of the Baha’u’llah.

So are you telling me that Bahaullah is not a Prophet. Well this sounds strange to me coz as Abdulbaha has mentioned a Messenger is also a Prophet. If you don't mind please explain it to me in a clear way.
Peace

[Baha'i Warrior]

The Bab ended the prophetic cycle and He inaugurated the cycle of fulfillment. Muhammad was technically the last Prophet (hence seal of the Prophets), even though Baha'is may loosely refer to the Bab and Baha'u'llah as prophets. They are Messengers of God. The function of all the Prophets was to foretell the coming of the Baha’u’llah.

[Baha'i Warrior]

also, technically the Bab and Baha'u'llah were prophets, but of a different sort. All the prophets of the past had the function of foretelling Baha'u'llah. Now that Baha'u'llah has appeared, He cannot be classified as a Prophet having the same function as the previous ones.

[Guest]

also, technically the Bab and Baha'u'llah were prophets, but of a different sort. All the prophets of the past had the function of foretelling Baha'u'llah. Now that Baha'u'llah has appeared, He cannot be classified as a Prophet having the same function as the previous ones.

Well then from your response i can understand one thing i mean Bahaullah was one of the Messengers of God and if i am not mistaken he even said not to make any distinction among the Messengers of God. But now what you are telling me is that all the past Messengers and Prophets well fortelling the coming of Bahaullah.
And i really don't understand by what " a different sort of prohet" you mean. As far as i know there are differences b/n Messengers and Prophets but in Prophets well i really would appreciate a further expalnation if you don't mind.
Peace

[Baha'i Warrior]

But now what you are telling me is that all the past Messengers and Prophets well fortelling the coming of Bahaullah.

Uh, yeah. That's what I said.

And i really don't understand by what " a different sort of prohet" you mean. As far as i know there are differences b/n Messengers and Prophets but in Prophets well i really would appreciate a further expalnation if you don't mind.
Peace

"Prophetic cycle Prophets" Christ, Muhammad, Buddah, etc. -------> foretell coming of Baha'u'llah -----> prophesies fulfilled -------> prophetic cycle ended -------> Cycle of fulfillment inaugurated------> start of "Non-prophetic cycle Prophets" a.k.a. "cycle of fulfillment prophets"


The prophets of the past had a function of foretelling Baha'u'llah. Baha'u'llah is not foretelling the coming of Baha'u'llah, so it's a different class of Prophets, if you want to put it that way

[Guest]

Ok then
but i think Bahaullah foretold the coming of the next Mesenger of God after 1000 years. Does this have to do any thing with him being a Prophet or not.

[Baha'i Warrior]

Yes. Baha’u’llah is a Prophet. Him foretelling the coming of the next Manifestation is prophetic, yes. However, He is of a different class of Prophets (as I have already explained, Baha'u'llah's function as being a Prophet is different than that of Muhammad's, Christ's, etc.) When the next Manifestation comes, the majority of the Baha'is will pledge allegiance to Him.

But we will not be having another “Prophetic Cycle” where a lot of Baha'is remain Baha'is after the next Manifestation of God appears, and then when that Manifestation's tenure has ended, many of His believers deny His Successor, and so on. And we also know that, unlike past religions, the Baha'i Faith is protected from breaking up into sects.

Ok then
but i think Bahaullah foretold the coming of the next Mesenger of God after 1000 years. Does this have to do any thing with him being a Prophet or not.