Jonah! I Protest...

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Sarah Ahmad
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Jonah! I Protest...

Postby Sarah Ahmad » Wed Sep 28, 2005 12:13 am

Salam,

Dear Jonah! Why you have closed this thread?

http://bahai-library.com/forum2/viewtopic.php?t=412

It is my right to ask the Bahais to show me that laws of Kitab-e-Aqdas are supreme and better than the previous Holy Books.

I have the courage to show that Laws of Holy Quran are better than Kitab-e-Aqdas and we dont need any new religion after Islam.

I asked simple questions as under:

I again request you to plz show me:

( 1 ) Those laws of the Holy Quran which have been cancelled by the Kitab-e-Aqdas and prove that such laws given by Kitab-e-Aqdas are better than the cancelled laws of the Holy Quran.

( 2 ) What are the common laws of the Holy Quran and Kitab-e-Aqdas and what advancement has been made in those laws by Baha’u’llah and then how they benefit the mankind.

( 3 ) The new laws revealed by Baha'u'llah and prove the same.

How can I change my religion for such a religion whose followers dont want to show that their laws are better than the laws of the previous Holy Books?

Jonah! It is my right to ask the Bahais such questions.

Bahais should give a list of the laws of Kitab-e-Aqdas with the laws of the Holy Quran and then prove that laws of Kitab-e-Aqdas are supreme.

It was such a simple demand.

I really dont understand this behaviour from your side Jonah.

Take Care,

Khuda Hafiz

Jonah
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Postby Jonah » Wed Sep 28, 2005 1:05 am

I have the courage to show that Laws of Holy Quran are better than Kitab-e-Aqdas.

Yes, I see that.

I think that conversations comparing, and attempting to win an argument in favor of, the superiority of one religion over another are bound to produce conflict and unlikely to bring about a shared understanding.

You did ask why Baha'is believe that the laws and teachings of the Baha'i Faith supersede those of Islam and the Qur'an, and I believe that <a href="http://bahai-library.com/forum2/viewtopic.php?t=412">the previous thread</a> answered this fairly well. For more depth, I highly recommend that you look at the Baha'i concept of Progressive Revelation. Here's an article overview: http://bahai-library.com/?file=stockman ... revelation . For more, <a href="http://www.google.com/custom?domains=bahai-library.com&q=progressive+revelation&btnG=Search&sitesearch=bahai-library.com">Google "Progressive Revelation"</a> at this site.

-Jonah

Sarah Ahmad
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Where?

Postby Sarah Ahmad » Wed Sep 28, 2005 1:16 am

Dear Jonah,

According to you,

You did ask why Baha'is believe that the laws and teachings of the Baha'i Faith supersede those of Islam and the Qur'an, and I believe that the previous thread answered this fairly well.


Jonah! Its just you believe I dont. Will you tell me in which post my questions were answered?

According to Bahais, after Islam, another menifestation has come. Now the latest religion from God is Bahai Religion.

Instead of presenting verses from the Kitab-e-Aqdas and proving their superiority over the previous Holy Books ( like Holy Quran did ), I was given references of the sayings of the 12 shia imams. Is this the way to prove your religion?

I asked simple questions and I was expecting that the Bahais who have many a site on internet will very easily give me links of some articles in which the laws of the Kitab-e-Aqdas would have been compared with the laws of the previous Holy Books.

If this is the behaviour of the followers of the Bahai Faith then I am not blind and cant accept this faith from God.

If I am to change my religion after some latest and true religion of God then it is my right to ask

I again request you to plz show me:

( 1 ) Those laws of the Holy Quran which have been cancelled by the Kitab-e-Aqdas and prove that such laws given by Kitab-e-Aqdas are better than the cancelled laws of the Holy Quran.

( 2 ) What are the common laws of the Holy Quran and Kitab-e-Aqdas and what advancement has been made in those laws by Baha’u’llah and then how they benefit the mankind.

( 3 ) The new laws revealed by Baha'u'llah and prove the same.

Take Care,

Khuda Hafiz

Jonah
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Postby Jonah » Wed Sep 28, 2005 4:18 am

The Baha'i Faith is not better than Islam, any more than being 35 years old is better than being 34. However, Baha'is regard it as the latest Faith of God, and hence preferable. Baha'is will not be interested in comparing the relative value of Islam versus the Baha'i Faith, because it's a non-relevant topic to them. Baha'is will no more wish to convert to Islam than I want to be 34 years old again -- but that doesn't mean that one is better than the other.

Regarding an enumeration of which specific laws have been abrogated, that is indeed another topic. Some examples were given in the previous post, and as you remember from having read it, a number are explicitly mentioned in the Aqdas. I don't know if anyone has compiled a list of the other laws from previous Dispensations which have been superseded by Baha'u'llah's Writings, but I wouldn't be surprised if someone has. I don't believe such a document is on this website. It would be a very long list, unless restricted just to laws of Islam which have been agrogated.

As well as the Aqdas, you can find other tablets on this subject in <a href="http://bahai-library.com/?file=bahaullah_tablets">Tablets of Bahá'u'lláh Revealed after the Kitab-i-Aqdas</a>, especially these Tablets in it: <a href="http://www.bahai-library.com/writings/bahaullah/tb/1.html#2">Lawh-i-Aqdas</a>, <a href="http://www.bahai-library.com/writings/bahaullah/tb/2.html">Bisharat</a>, <a href="http://www.bahai-library.com/writings/bahaullah/tb/3.html">Tarazat</a>, and <a href="http://www.bahai-library.com/writings/bahaullah/tb/4.html">Tajalliyat</a>. Most of this is regarding new teachings, but there are some references in those links to older teachings which are to be abandoned.

If these two books -- <i>The Kitab-i-Aqdas</i> and <i>Tablets of Baha'u'llah Revealed after the Kitab-i-Aqdas</i> -- do not answer your question, and you do not find an answer in the articles on Progressive Revelation, then it's possible we simply do not have the kind of answer you're looking for.

-Jonah

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Re: Jonah! I Protest...

Postby Baha'i Warrior » Wed Sep 28, 2005 8:42 am

Sarah Ahmad wrote:I have the courage to show that Laws of Holy Quran are better than Kitab-e-Aqdas and we dont need any new religion after Islam.


Sarah,

That may be seen by some as provocative. Baha'is are not to argue with anyone, this is made clear in the Writings. So you might want to come up with some new questions, because your questions were answered to the best of our extents. Maybe you might also want to read some Baha'i texts yourself and see if they seem "superior" or not to you.

Guest

Postby Guest » Wed Sep 28, 2005 10:50 am

Dear Khuda Hafiz,

Hi, Hello, I am a Baha'i guest here at Baha'i-library.org. I think it is great that you are asking questions and working hard to understand & make informed decisions regarding religion.

I am not a Baha'i scholar, as some here are, but I have some thoughts to share with you nonetheless. I hope they will be helpful.

Are you a college student? Seems I have been going to college forever and a day :) Occasionally, I will return to a class, following break, to find the text used last term has been updated, and thus, a new edition is available. Has this ever happened to you?

I like how Jonah said that the Baha'i Revelation is not better than the Islamic Revelation. It is said in the Writings that the Baha'i Revelation is the latest Word of God, the updated, revised edition, if you will.

Just as the college text you were using last semester is no longer the current one in use, so too has the Book containing the Word of God been updated. The subject is still the same, the basic information is still the same, but it has been updated.

As mentioned, it might be difficult to provide you with a list of each change / revision that has occurred between the 2 texts.

There is a book called, "Baha'i Essentials" By: Steven Ellis. Perhaps this text would be helpful in your search to find the differences between the Revelations. This text will give you all the basics of everyday life and practices of the Baha'i. Perhaps you could compare and contrast it to the everyday life and practices of a Muslim.

Hope this perspective has been helpful.

God Bless.
Baha'i guest.

Guest

Postby Guest » Wed Sep 28, 2005 10:57 pm

Dearest Kudah Hafiz,

Asalamu Alaikum!

I appreciate you diligent search for answers and please excuse Jonah for his impatience.

I think what he wanted to communicate is that Baha'is believe in the unity of all spiritual people and this unity cannot occur if we are constantly bickering about which spiritual path is superior to another.

You are correct in noting that the concept of spiritual unity is provided for in the Quran in Ayat 44:13, which reads:

"The same Religion He has established for you is that which He enjoined on Noah. That which We have sent inspiration to you is that which We have enjoined on Abraham, Moses, and Jesus, namely, that you should remain steadfast in Religion, and make no divisions therin"


The problem is that the leaders of Islam did not heed this call to spiritual unity and did create another division and called it Islam. Baha'i leadership is struggling with this same tendency in that some want to create a separate division and call it Baha'i, and others want a meta-religion that embraces all religions as equally valid.

So continue to ask your questions, as it is obvious that Allah (God) is leading you in the right direction. And just like there have been misguided leaders in Islam, there are equally misguided leaders in the Baha'i faith. So don't be discouraged by what you may hear or see from certain Baha'is. I would encourage you to read the "actual" Writings of Baha'u'llah, starting with the Kitab-i-Iqan. The Kitab-i-Iqan was addressed to a Muslim audience and has many references to the Quran to illustrate why Baha'u'llah believes there is a need for a new Dispensation in Religion, the "one" Religion of God that has many Revealers, Prophets, Messengers, and Manifestations, but is still nonetheless the "same" Religion.

Keyvan
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Postby Keyvan » Thu Sep 29, 2005 12:32 am

Sarah,

i believe I answered your questions in full on the previous thread right before it was closed. i presented you with a comparative display of laws from the Aqdas.

Shia hadiths? No! it is in the Qur'an. it is in 11:120. All the proof you need is right there. another Rasul will come. it gives you instructions and a warning of that fact.

and what do you mean by the word "better", can you please answer that question?

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Postby Keyvan » Thu Sep 29, 2005 2:11 am

and one more thing,

if you want to know about the Bahai claim, it is NOT, i repeat NOT to be found in The Kitab-i-Aqdas

we have MULTIPLE books. Aqdas is the book of LAWS, thats it.

what you are looking for is the Kitab-i-Iqan. the Iqan was written by Baha'u'llah in response to critical questions asked of Him by a Muslim who was not convinced as to the claim of The Bab.

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Postby Baha'i Warrior » Thu Sep 29, 2005 12:35 pm

Keyvan wrote:and one more thing,

if you want to know about the Bahai claim, it is NOT, i repeat NOT to be found in The Kitab-i-Aqdas

we have MULTIPLE books. Aqdas is the book of LAWS, thats it.

what you are looking for is the Kitab-i-Iqan. the Iqan was written by Baha'u'llah in response to critical questions asked of Him by a Muslim who was not convinced as to the claim of The Bab.



Keyvan, she wants to compare the Laws of Baha'u'llah to those of Islam. That's what the whole discussion over. If she is convinced that the Laws are "superior," in her own words, then she will be convinced that this is a religion of God. She never asked for proof from the Qu'ran that Baha'u'llah is the promised Manifestation, even though she may not be sure about it. So if she really does want to compare the laws, then she indeed has to look at the Kitab-i-Aqdas.

Anonymous wrote:I appreciate you diligent search for answers and please excuse Jonah for his impatience.


Jonah is not impatient. He saw that the discussion was producing no fruits because Sarah kept repeated her questions, though she was given direct answers countless times.



Anonymous wrote:The problem is that the leaders of Islam did not heed this call to spiritual unity and did create another division and called it Islam. Baha'i leadership is struggling with this same tendency in that some want to create a separate division and call it Baha'i, and others want a meta-religion that embraces all religions as equally valid.



You are forgetting that the Baha'is Faith is governed by appointed bodies which are infallible. And therefore you cannot compare the Faith to Islam (as they did not have such institutions), because while Baha'is individually may try to break off into different sects, they will never be recognized by those endowed with the Covenant. So obviously, we (Baha'is) do not have that kind of problem. No offense, but who cares about "some" who "want to create a separate division"? Whatever they do is of no importance, and is not even worthy of mention.



Anonymous wrote:So continue to ask your questions, as it is obvious that Allah (God) is leading you in the right direction. And just like there have been misguided leaders in Islam, there are equally misguided leaders in the Baha'i faith.


And one example of being misguided by a Baha'i is illustrated here, to even suggest that "leaders in the Baha'i faith" can misguide Baha'is. The Covenant and anyone under its protection never can give misguiding information, even if he wanted to. If by leaders you mean "prominent" Baha'is, then that might be true but is also highly unlikely because they reason they became "prominent" in the first place is due to their spirituality, which includes utter submission to the Will of God, to the Baha'i Writings, and to the Covenant.


But, in conclusion, you must never accept what any individual Baha'i might tell you. You must decide for yourself. It is not bad to learn from knowledegable Baha'is, however you won't find many of them here. Jonah is one example of a good resource, but as to others on this board—be cautious. In any case, always go to the Text yourself.

Keyvan
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Postby Keyvan » Thu Sep 29, 2005 1:19 pm

Sarah, please read the posts i sent you in the thread that was closed, and in the ones just above in this current forum.


i have answered your questions in full, so please stop asking them and just respond to what youve seen. its getting to be a bit of an annoyance

thank you.

Keyvan
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Postby Keyvan » Thu Sep 29, 2005 1:20 pm

btw the posts i refer to in the thread that was closed, are not the ones that you have already responded to on that thread, rather they are the posts that you completely skipped over after you saw that the post after mine, (jonah's) closing the thread.

before the thread was closed i gave you a comprehensive response which you did not see, please refer to it. thankyou.

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Postby Baha'i Warrior » Fri Sep 30, 2005 4:44 pm

no reply, Sarah? look at it this way: if you became a Baha'i, and even if it was not a true religion of God—and I say if—what do you have to lose? if you look at the other thread, you will see that Shoghi Effendi said it is essential that a Baha'i study the Holy Koran because without this knowledge he will not be able to adequately understand the Writings of Baha'u'llah. So you will not have to abandon your holy book if you became Baha'i. Baha'is are encouraged to use verses from the Koran in their devotional meetings. they can even use it in their Feasts, if they wish.

but the choice is ultimately up to you. the Writings say that we (Baha'is) are to present others with this Gift as one would offer a gift to a king. either you can accept this Gift or you can decline it.

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Postby Keyvan » Fri Sep 30, 2005 11:20 pm

[personal attack deleted by moderator]

sarah if you are a student of comparitive religion which you claim to be, why is it that you are not reading what we recommended.

you thought the Aqdas is the Bahai equivlent to the Quran. but thats not true. we have many many many books. The Aqdas is just the laws, it has NOTHING to do with the claim of Baha'u'llah in refernce to what people interpereted from the Quran.
The Kitab-i-Iqan is the reference you are looking for to study the claim of The Bab and Baha'u'llah, from Baha'u'llah Himself.

the entire SURAH OF HUD was revealed as preparation for the coming of more Rasulet, as proved in 11:120

in the Iqan you will find Shia hadiths as well though. so why use them? because the Iqan was written as a letter to a Shia Muslim who asked Baha'u'llah questions refering to how the claimed Dispensation does not line up with specific hadiths.

The Quran is all we will ever need to prove our religion. Surah 11. 11:120 is they key.
The hadiths sited were simply to suffice the Shia who used them as a way to contradict Him.

take "Submitters" for example. Rashad Khalifa threw out every hadith when he made his claim and just uses a twisted interperetation of Quranic science. investigated it, its absurd. you can just barely go out on a limb to take it seriously, and thats ONLY when you throw out every single hadith.
SO NO ONE TAKES HIM SERIOUSLY

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Postby Baha'i Warrior » Sun Oct 02, 2005 8:11 pm

[response to above personal attack -- also deleted (see above) -- deleted my moderator]


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