Why need another Religion after Islam?

All research or scholarship questions
Sarah Ahmad
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Why need another Religion after Islam?

Postby Sarah Ahmad » Sun Sep 25, 2005 12:29 pm

Salam,

My questions to dear Bahai followers are:

( 1 ) I believe that Holy Quran is the Final Testament. Was there any change made in the text of the Holy Quran by the followers of Prophet Muhammad ( PBUH ) that, as a result, Bayan, and later, Kitab-e-Aqdas was revealed?

( 2 ) What is the superiority of the laws of Kitab-e-Aqdas over the laws of the Holy Quran? In other words can you prove that laws of the Holy Quran were not enough for the whole mankind and new laws had to be given to mankind?

Waiting for your humble reply.

Khuda Hafiz

Keyvan

Postby Keyvan » Sun Sep 25, 2005 2:26 pm

Hey Sarah.

first of all the Aqdas is just one of our books. we have many.

We believe that The Bab was Imam Mahdi who revealed that the Day of Resurrection was figurative

7. He it is Who has sent down to thee the Book: in it are verses basic or fundamental (of established meaning); they are the foundation of the Book: others are allegorical. But those in whose hearts is perversity follow the part there of that is allegorical, seeking discord, and searching for its hidden meanings, but no one knows its hidden meanings except Allah and those who are firmly grounded in knowledge say: "We believe in the Book; the whole of it is from our Lord;" and none will grasp the Message except men of understanding.

(The Qur'an (Yusuf Ali tr), Surah 3)



Imam Mahdi (The Bab) revealed:

"...the meaning of 'the Day of Resurrection' is the day of the appearance of the Tree of Reality...The meaning of 'the Day of Resurrection' in the sight of God and in the terminology of the people of truth is that, from the moment of the appearance of the Tree of Reality in every age and in every name, until the time of its disappearance, constitutes the Day of Resurrection."

-The Bayan, Unity 2, Chapter 7


This meant that His mission was to usher it that which would come. He Whom God Shall Make Manifest, who would build the kingdom of God on Earth; the worldwide Sharia. This was Baha'u'llah and everything He layed out.



The Quran does not say there are no Rasul after Muhammad, only Nabi, the lesser Prophet. The Bab and Baha'u'llah were messengers(greater prophets), not lesser prophets. those are sealed off in 33:40


Remember, the SURAH OF HUD, is all about those who refused to accept the Messenger that was Given to them. it ends with this

120 And all that We relate unto thee of the story of the messengers is in order that thereby We may make firm thy heart. And herein hath come unto thee the Truth and an exhortation and a reminder for believers

(The Qur'an (Pickthall tr), Sura 11 - Hud)


there is absolutly no other meaning to this than that another Prophet would come after Muhammad.

to say that He was the Last Prophet until the Day of Resurrection is true too. since The Day of Resurrection thus mesn the coming of the Next Prophet.


The Laws of the Aqdas both repeal and add laws. This is what God revealed for this era, this Day of Days, that which would sustain a complete universal Sharia

Keyvan




feel free to ask anything

Baha'i Warrior
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Re: Why need another Religion after Islam?

Postby Baha'i Warrior » Sun Sep 25, 2005 7:35 pm

Sarah Ahmad wrote: What is the superiority of the laws of Kitab-e-Aqdas over the laws of the Holy Quran? In other words can you prove that laws of the Holy Quran were not enough for the whole mankind and new laws had to be given to mankind?


Muhammad's revelation was around a thousand years ago. His laws were appropriate for that time. Every one thousand years or so, God sends a Prophet because religion becomes corrupt and needs to be renewed. The world changes. Therefore, news laws are always needed to keep up with the times, so to speak. Keep in mind that these laws are all from the same Source. New laws are always needed, and as man matures, he gains a greater capacity to comprehend them. Baha'u'llah, in His Hidden Words, states:

"O SON OF BEAUTY!

By My spirit and by My favor! By My mercy and by My beauty! All that I have revealed unto thee with the tongue of power, and have written for thee with the pen of might, hath been in accordance with thy capacity and understanding, not with My state and the melody of My voice."


So since we are in a new era, we are in dire need of new laws, and the state that the world is now in attests to this fact.

Now, you asked if the laws of the Holy Quran are not good enough for mankind today. And, yes, I do have proof. Go to your television set and turn to the news. Who is ripping who's head off in the name of a religion? Who is strapping bombs to himself and blowing up innocent children as they enjoy ice cream in the name of a religion? Which religious leaders (in Pakistan) are ordering for the wives of fellow Muslim men to be raped? Which religion discriminates against their women and forces them to be covered from head to toe, and does not give them equal rights? Which religious leader’s (in Africa) issue fatwas that parents are to have their daughter’s genitals mutilated? The list goes on.

The Baha'i Faith is the only religion which addresses the issue of equality of men and women. As the quote of Baha'u'llah has shown, during the time of Islam, the people were not capable of this concept, and that is why this principle was not addressed. Now, today, we are capable of understanding more “advanced” laws. Islamic societies keep women ignorant and hence their children grow up ignorant. Their whole society falls behind. I do not mean at all to cause any offense, I am just trying to make a point. How does a society advance if it suppresses half of its peoples? It does not advance, and, in fact, it becomes more and more wayward, until its peoples become barbaric and godless, though they profess to be followers of a Prophet. However, the Baha’i Writings make is clear that if there is a shortage in teachers, daughters are the ones to be educated, because they will be responsible for the education of the next generation.

Look at Iran: many of the Baha'is the Muslims killed were in fact the best architects and doctors, for instance. They contributed to Iran’s greatness. Many of the Baha'i doctors were so good that Muslims—though they despised the Baha'i Faith (as they were taught to do)—went to them for treatment! because they knew that fellow Muslims would act dishonestly toward them, and they new the Baha'is would treat them with fairness and with love though they were being persecuted.

Is this not proof enough, the ennobling effect the Baha'i Faith can have on its believers?

And this is true: Islam is a religion of peace. Muhammad's religion will always remain pure. Islam was great at one point, as Christianity was. However, in 1844, when the Baha'i dispensation was inaugurated—at that point—the Baha'i Faith became the religion of this day and age. In other words, Muslims—if they really do love Muhammad as they profess—will obey God's will and submit to His new laws and ordinances, because, again, when a new Manifestation of God comes to us, we are to follow Him and abide by His laws, that is, for our own good and for the good of humanity.


Personally, I would encourage you to really, with an open heart, read the Writings of Baha'u'llah and see for yourself if this is really of God. These Writings are after all spiritual, and if you soul is indeed receptive, these beautiful words will move you. Baha'u'llah says that the true miracle is the Word of God, and even though Prophets may have performed miracles, they were only witnessed by a few. But the true miracle—that is the Holy Writings—is what remains eternally.

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Postby Baha'i Warrior » Sun Sep 25, 2005 8:04 pm

Just as a disclaimer, I do not at all intend to insinuate at all that Muslims are all terrorists or evil, God forbid, because that is simply not true. But my main point is: where in the Islamic Writings is it said that nations should all be united, where is it said that there should be compulsory peace, unity of the sexes, unity of the races? In today's world, the races are interacting much more than ever—nations are becoming closer—these laws are crucial! Islam has gotten a bad name through terrorism, but, those that are not terrorists, what are they doing to better the situation? If you are not a part of the solution, you are a part of the problem, as they saying goes.

I have seen one website that says Islam is all about peace and believes in the equality of the sexes. Since when? Where is that stated in your Writings? Are you even practicing it? No! The truth is, unless we accept God's new laws and ordinances, mankind will become more and more wayward, and more and more ignorant. Only through the ennobling effect of the Baha'i teachings can the world become unified. Baha'u'llah says that—even if you do not want to become Baha'is—at least follow His teachings, because they will only benefit you!

Keyvan
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Postby Keyvan » Sun Sep 25, 2005 8:09 pm

well i just want to add on something.

yes on the news we see things, but of course this is not the correct interperetation of Islam, so it is not wise to generalize.

Although, we can see these misinterperetations and divisions as an example of the need of religious renewal and progressive revelation.

on the spiritual need for religious continuous, we can turn to the Kitab-i-Iqan

in terms of prophecy, that is, the need as according to prophecy, we can look in the text of past religions. The Day of Days, the Hour, Day of Resurrection, this pertains to the coming of the Bahai Dispensation.

Before religions of the past were for a region or a nation, spreading Gods word all over the world. in this Dispensation, with THIS religion, Baha'u'llah has brought all the past religions of this world together, under their common Prophecy of His coming. as a world we will have a united utopia, a Sharia under Universal Peace and Justice, which will skyrocket the development of mankind beyond any known fathomable notion.


Sarah, have you read the Kitab-i-Iqan?

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Postby Baha'i Warrior » Sun Sep 25, 2005 8:11 pm

Keyvan wrote:yes on the news we see things, but of course this is not the correct interperetation of Islam, so it is not wise to generalize.


Baha'i Warrior wrote:Just as a disclaimer, I do not at all intend to insinuate at all that Muslims are all terrorists or evil, God forbid, because that is simply not true.

Keyvan
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Postby Keyvan » Sun Sep 25, 2005 10:43 pm

it doesnt matter. to say that would be a remark on the religion, and not just an interperetation. clearly no muslim would agree with that since they consider that not to be islam. but if it is their own islam that the Bahai faith is responding to than that would make a weak arguement. only 10% of Muslims are Shia, seeing 90% as misinterpereting it, yet its fine to be just that 10% minority, just as long as a correct interperetation exists there is no need for another one. you see that would be the counter arguement, as there is no correct interpertation of Christianity in existance, hense the need for Muhammad. yet we say that that is not why religions renew, hense my need to clarify and show an appropriate use of your example.

Sarah Ahmad
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My Reply :)

Postby Sarah Ahmad » Mon Sep 26, 2005 5:59 am

Salam,

I asked two questions but in all these replies there is no to the point answer.

first of all the Aqdas is just one of our books. we have many.


I give reference of Kitab-e-Aqdas because it is the book of Laws.

The Laws of the Aqdas both repeal and add laws. This is what God revealed for this era, this Day of Days, that which would sustain a complete universal Sharia


Because I don’t believe in Kitab-e-Aqdas that’s why I asked two questions. Would you please tell me what is the superiority of the laws of Kitab-e-Aqdas over Holy Quran?

Baha'u'llah says that—even if you do not want to become Baha'is—at least follow His teachings, because they will only benefit you


Go ahead and prove that Laws of Kitab-e-Aqdas are superior to the laws of Holy Quran.

Please give me the reference of this saying of Baha'u'llah.

In the end I repeat my two questions again.

My questions to dear Bahai followers are:

( 1 ) I believe that Holy Quran is the Final Testament. Was there any change made in the text of the Holy Quran by the followers of Prophet Muhammad ( PBUH ) that, as a result, Bayan, and later, Kitab-e-Aqdas was revealed?

( 2 ) What is the superiority of the laws of Kitab-e-Aqdas over the laws of the Holy Quran? In other words can you prove that laws of the Holy Quran were not enough for the whole mankind and new laws had to be given to mankind?

Waiting for your humble reply.

Khuda Hafiz

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Postby Baha'i Warrior » Mon Sep 26, 2005 10:41 am

Dear Sarah,

First of all, I would like to refer you to GLEANINGS FROM THE WRITINGS OF BAHA'U'LLAH, because in it Baha'u'llah compares His plight to that of Muhammad. (pp. 24–27) However I will get right to your question.

You wanted a quote in which Baha'u'llah specifically states that His laws are superior to Muhammad's. You will not find such a quote. Why? Well, why in the first place, would Baha'u'llah say such a thing? Again, if you read Gleanings, you will see that the Prophets of God all come from the same source, that is, they are not different people:

"Thus hath Muhammad, the Point of the Qur'án, revealed: "I am all the Prophets." Likewise, He saith: "I am the first Adam, Noah, Moses, and Jesus." Similar statements have been made by Imám Alí. Sayings such as these, which indicate the essential unity of those Exponents of Oneness, have also emanated from the Channels of God's immortal utterance, and the Treasuries of the gems of Divine knowledge, and have been recorded in the Scriptures. These Countenances are the recipients of the Divine Command, and the Day Springs of His Revelation."
(Gleanings, p. 51)

He goes on to say "This Revelation is exalted above the veils of plurality and the exigencies of number. Thus He saith: "Our Cause is but One." Inasmuch as the Cause is one and the same, the Exponents thereof also must needs be one and the same."

So in reality, Baha'u'llah is Muhammad, and therefore Baha'u'llah is not going to explicitly say "My laws are better than Muhammad's." Yes, Baha'u'llah's Laws are superior, because while there are similarities, the Laws Baha'u'llah has given us are appropriate for this day and age, and the Laws given by Muhammad need to be updated, so to speak.

If you want, I can even give you evidence of what a superior effect the Laws of Baha'u'llah has on its believers, and therefore prove to you the superiority of His Laws. I can give you countless news stories in which Baha'is in all parts of the globe, inspired by the teachings of Baha'u'llah, are standing out in terms of peace, brotherhood, service, etc. Then I will ask you to show me what instances in which Muslims, inspired by their Laws, are doing things to better the human condition. Again, this is a point I am really trying to stress: the greatest proof of Baha'u'llah's revelation is the impact it has on its believers. Again, in Gleanings Baha’u’llah says: “ Think not that We have revealed unto you a mere code of laws. Nay, rather, We have unsealed the choice Wine with the fingers of might and power. To this beareth witness that which the Pen of Revelation hath revealed. Meditate upon this, O men of insight!”

Baha'u'llah commences, in His Kitab-i-Aqdas, by stating:

"The first duty prescribed by God for His servants is the recognition of Him Who is the Dayspring of His Revelation and the Fountain of His laws, Who representeth the Godhead in both the Kingdom of His Cause and the world of creation. Whoso achieveth this duty hath attained unto all good; and whoso is deprived thereof hath gone astray, though he be the author of every righteous deed. It behoveth every one who reacheth this most sublime station, this summit of transcendent glory, to observe every ordinance of Him Who is the Desire of the world. These twin duties are inseparable. Neither is acceptable without the other. Thus hath it been decreed by Him Who is the Source of Divine inspiration."

He goes on to say:

"They whom God hath endued with insight will readily recognize that the precepts laid down by God constitute the highest means for the maintenance of order in the world and the security of its peoples."

I would like to talk about this quote. Notice that Baha'u'llah explicitly states that His laws "constitute the highest means for the maintenance of order in the world." Again, Baha'is are proving this to be true by their actions. Ask yourself, are the Law of Muhammad adding to the "maintenance of order in the world and the security of its peoples"? Give me some examples. And then ask yourself, is it not true that religion has a transforming effect, that is, if a religion is indeed of God, it's believers will possess more virtues and contribute more to stability and order in the world as opposed to those who do not? Those who do not, contribute to mayhem, godlessness, and disorder, and those who do, contribute to peace.

I will leave it at that for not. I have answered your second question. Your first question is a bit confusing to me, so if you would restate it I would certainly appreciate it.

Regards

PS—some laws of Muhammad are even cancelled in this revelation. For instance, again, the Kitab-i-Aqdas states:

"God hath permitted you to worship upon any clean thing, and the law concerning this as ordained in the book (Koran) is hereby cancelled. Verily, God knoweth, but ye know not!" Not only does Baha'u'llah add news laws, He abolishes some old ones.

Sarah Ahmad
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My Reply :)

Postby Sarah Ahmad » Mon Sep 26, 2005 10:49 pm

Salam,

You wanted a quote in which Baha'u'llah specifically states that His laws are superior to Muhammad's. You will not find such a quote.


Actually you gave one saying of Baha’u’llah in your previous post

"even if you do not want to become Baha'is—at least follow His teachings, because they will only benefit you”

I was asking the reference of that saying.

If you want, I can even give you evidence of what a superior effect the Laws of Baha'u'llah has on its believers, and therefore prove to you the superiority of His Laws. I can give you countless news stories in which Baha'is in all parts of the globe, inspired by the teachings of Baha'u'llah, are standing out in terms of peace, brotherhood, service, etc. Then I will ask you to show me what instances in which Muslims, inspired by their Laws, are doing things to better the human condition.


Ask yourself, are the Law of Muhammad adding to the "maintenance of order in the world and the security of its peoples"? Give me some examples. And then ask yourself, is it not true that religion has a transforming effect, that is, if a religion is indeed of God, it's believers will possess more virtues and contribute more to stability and order in the world as opposed to those who do not? Those who do not, contribute to mayhem, godlessness, and disorder, and those who do, contribute to peace.


If you talk about the different sections of Muslims then I am with you. Let me introduce myself this time. I am from the Ahmadiyya Movement in Islam. My section has been declared non-Muslim in Pakistan in 1974 by the then National Assembly. Like Bahais, we the Ahmadi Muslims are also badly persecuted.

http://www.thepersecution.org

Being an Ahmadi Girl I cant tell outside that I am Ahmadi just because there are verdicts given by the scholars of other Muslim Sections that Ahmadi Women and Girls are the property of Muslims.

You wrote,

Ask yourself, are the Law of Muhammad adding to the "maintenance of order in the world and the security of its peoples"? Give me some examples.


I present my Ahmadiyya Movement as an example. Like Babis or Bahais, we also have no government but we are known very well because of our peaceful history. We are the only one who PRACTICE Islam as a whole.

This is our official site

http://www.alislam.org

Now let me explain my two questions.

I asked from my dear Bahai members

( 1 ) I believe that Holy Quran is the Final Testament. Was there any change made in the text of the Holy Quran by the followers of Prophet Muhammad ( PBUH ) that, as a result, Bayan, and later, Kitab-e-Aqdas was revealed?

Whenever a change was made in the text of the Holy Books by their followers the next Holy Book came. Being a Muslim I see that no change is made in the text of the Holy Quran which is accepted by Muslims. So there is no point in revealing another book after the Holy Quran. This is my point.

You can see that when the Holy Bible was made corrupt and the text was abrogated and altered the Holy Quran came. In Holy Quran God made the promise that no change will be made in the text of the Holy Quran. When there is no new book then there is no new Religion. The Islam of Holy Prophet Muhammad ( SAW ) is the Last Religion.

I asked the second question

( 2 ) What is the superiority of the laws of Kitab-e-Aqdas over the laws of the Holy Quran? In other words can you prove that laws of the Holy Quran were not enough for the whole mankind and new laws had to be given to mankind?

Would you please do me one favor. Show me those laws of the Holy Quran which have been cancelled by the Kitab-e-Aqdas and prove that such laws given by Kitab-e-Aqdas are better than the cancelled laws of the Holy Quran.

Then show me what are the common laws of the Holy Quran and Kitab-e-Aqdas and show me what advancement has been made in those laws by Baha’u’llah and then how they benefit the mankind.

Then also show me new laws and prove the same.

I want to see that if Bahai Religion is really from God then the laws of Kitab-e-Aqdas must be better than the laws of the Holy Quran.

Take Care,

Khuda Hafiz

Keyvan
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Postby Keyvan » Mon Sep 26, 2005 11:29 pm

Sarah, why do you insist these words of "better" that a law is "better"

these terms are irrelevent, as the books are from the same source.

no there is no better or worse, therefore such an answer to that biased question does not exist.

Keyvan
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Postby Keyvan » Mon Sep 26, 2005 11:36 pm

Sarah, i have answered your questions in my first post. please refer to it.


i am familiar and have read of Ahmadi Muslims. i even have a book on it.

we do not believe in restorative Prophets of Islam. khattam-al-nabawwan refers to lesser prophets. khattam means khattam and nabawwaan means nabawwan. nabi is lesser prophet. this seals them off, but

not Rasulet

The Bab and Baha'u'llah are Rasulet

also there are really no Babi's left in existance, almost all Babi's converted to Baha'i.

also i heard one of your former leaders Mirza Abu Bakr became a Baha'i. is this true?

Sarah Ahmad
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My Reply :)

Postby Sarah Ahmad » Tue Sep 27, 2005 2:19 am

Salam,

I am really disappointed to see this reply from your side.

First let me take Mr Abu Bakr Salahuddin

also i heard one of your former leaders Mirza Abu Bakr became a Baha'i. is this true?


He is not Mirza Abu Bakr but Abu Bakr Salahuddin. He converted to Bahai Faith and he was not any leader of the Ahmadiyya Movement in Islam. Many Ahmadis wrote him and asked him why he is converted but he never gave them any to the point reply. Its just that when he entered your Bahai Temple in USA something happened. Now that "something happened" is not any proof for any non-Bahai to think about the conversion of any person to any religion.

It is my right to ask you that

Would you please do me one favor. Show me those laws of the Holy Quran which have been cancelled by the Kitab-e-Aqdas and prove that such laws given by Kitab-e-Aqdas are better than the cancelled laws of the Holy Quran.

Then show me what are the common laws of the Holy Quran and Kitab-e-Aqdas and show me what advancement has been made in those laws by Baha’u’llah and then how they benefit the mankind.

Then also show me new laws and prove the same.

I want to see that if Bahai Religion is really from God then the laws of Kitab-e-Aqdas must be better than the laws of the Holy Quran.


According to you

Sarah, why do you insist these words of "better" that a law is "better"

these terms are irrelevent, as the books are from the same source.

no there is no better or worse, therefore such an answer to that biased question does not exist.


Yes the books are from the same source always. Thats why I am interested in knowing about those better laws of Kitab-e-Aqdas than the laws of the Holy Quran. These terms are not irrelevant.

That is not biased question. It is my right to ask you such a question because I, till now, believe that Islam is the Final Religion and Holy Quran is the Last Testament and Holy Prophet Muhammad ( SAW ) is the last Law Bearing Prophet. I dont find any need to believe in the Kitab-e-Aqdas.

I again request you to plz show me:

( 1 ) Those laws of the Holy Quran which have been cancelled by the Kitab-e-Aqdas and prove that such laws given by Kitab-e-Aqdas are better than the cancelled laws of the Holy Quran.

( 2 ) What are the common laws of the Holy Quran and Kitab-e-Aqdas and what advancement has been made in those laws by Baha’u’llah and then how they benefit the mankind.

( 3 ) The new laws revealed by Baha'u'llah and prove the same.

How can I change my religion for such a religion whose followers dont want to show that their laws are better than the laws of the previous Holy Books?

I am waiting for your humble reply.

Take Care,

Khuda Hafiz

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Re: My Reply :)

Postby Baha'i Warrior » Tue Sep 27, 2005 6:04 pm

Sarah Ahmad wrote:I, till now, believe that Islam is the Final Religion and Holy Quran is the Last Testament and Holy Prophet Muhammad ( SAW ) is the last Law Bearing Prophet. I dont find any need to believe in the Kitab-e-Aqdas.

I again request you to plz show me:

( 1 ) Those laws of the Holy Quran which have been cancelled by the Kitab-e-Aqdas and prove that such laws given by Kitab-e-Aqdas are better than the cancelled laws of the Holy Quran.

( 2 ) What are the common laws of the Holy Quran and Kitab-e-Aqdas and what advancement has been made in those laws by Baha’u’llah and then how they benefit the mankind.

( 3 ) The new laws revealed by Baha'u'llah and prove the same.

How can I change my religion for such a religion whose followers dont want to show that their laws are better than the laws of the previous Holy Books?

I am waiting for your humble reply.

Take Care,




Where does such a requirement exist, that the laws of Baha'u'llah have to be the same as those of Muhammad? Certain traditions in Islam, for example, on the Mihdí (the Bab), say:

"He will perform that which Muhammad, the Messenger of God, hath
performed, and will demolish whatever hath been before Him even as the Messenger of God hath demolished the ways of those that preceded Him."

Sarah Ahmad wrote: How can I change my religion for such a religion whose followers dont want to show that their laws are better than the laws of the previous Holy Books?


I though I already did that twice in my above posts.

Since you use the word "superior" and "better," I will stick with them also. First of all, I would say automatically whatever Baha'u'llah reveals will be "superior," since this is the Revelation that Imám `Alí has foretold:

"Anticipate ye the Revelation of Him Who conversed with Moses from the Burning Bush on Sinai. This will appear with manifest signs visible unto all, clearly perspicuous to them.”

Since Imám `Alí foretells a new Revelation, something new will have to be revealed, as opposed to someone like Mirza Ghulam Ahmad merely "rejuvenating" the teachings of Islam.

Even though literally this Revelation did not "appear with manifest signs visible unto all," Jafar as-Sadiq has said: "Every knowledge hath seventy meanings, of which one only is known amongst the people." He also says: "We speak one word, and by it we intend one and seventy meanings; each one of these meanings we can explain." The Bible and the Quran use a lot of symbolism (as do other Holy Books), and many people take them literally, that is why many of them have failed to see Baha’u’llah as the fulfiller of their prophesies. Again, Sadiq says: “"God verily will test them and sift them."”

So my main point is that the Law's of Baha'u'llah do not necessarily have to similar with that of Islam (I am not saying that there are no similarities) because Baha'u'llah is a Manifestation of God, and therefore His Revelation is unique. The Baha'i Faith is not a branch or offshoot of Islam, as is the Lahore Ahmadiyya Movement, it is an Independant Faith—it is unique in all respects.

Also, the Imams (I mentioned) did predict a new a new Revelation, and therefore the Quran is not the Last Testament. A Revealer brings with Him a new Testament, is that not correct? And we (Baha'is) agree that Muhammad is the last prophet, but the prophesies clearly state that there will be another after Him. Even though we might, loosely speaking, call Baha’u’llah the “Prophet Founder of the Baha’i Faith,” or even call Him a Prophet, technically the Prophetic Cycle was ended by the Bab in 1844, and therefore They are Manifestations of God.

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AQDAS

Postby Keyvan » Tue Sep 27, 2005 6:43 pm

ok. the reason why some laws were Abrogated, etc, etc, is for a few reasons

1) this is a NEW Dispensation, for a new era, thus new laws apply. that which is in the Quran was never meant eternally, but rather until the Day of Resurrection, which we believe has come

2) the specific purpose of these laws as put forth was not simply "because" but for the Divine Plan. Islam, and more explicitly in Shia Islam the prophecy of Imam Mahdi was that He would come and build the most just Government the World has ever seen. since we believe our Dispensation is the fulfillment of that, THESE LAWS are the ones applicable FOR that Government

3) ill give you an example. PORK. pork was prohibited because it was an extreme health hazard at the time. unlike other meats, pork would be contaminated with microscopic organisms or worms, which would infest your body and youd die soon after. no other meat was like this, but the people at the time did not know better, they didnt know what a microbe was, so they simply called it "unclean." today it is not the same hazard, and we are free to eat it.

Keyvan
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Postby Keyvan » Tue Sep 27, 2005 6:44 pm

This is from a book called Synopsis and Codification of the Kitab-i-Aqdas


SYNOPSIS AND CODIFICATION

I. THE APPOINTMENT OF 'ABDU'L-BAHÁ AS THE SUCCESSOR OF
BAHÁ'U'LLÁH AND INTERPRETER OF HIS TEACHINGS

A. The faithful are enjoined to turn their faces towards the

One " Whom God hath purposed, Who hath branched from this
Ancient Root."
B. The faithful are bidden to refer whatsoever they do not

understand in the Bahá'í writings to "Him Who hath.
branched from this mighty Stock."

II. ANTICIPATION OF THE INSTITUTION OF GUARDIANSHIP

III. THE INSTITUTION OF THE HOUSE OF JUSTICE

A. The House of Justice is formally ordained.
B. Its functions are defined.
C. Its revenues are fixed.

IV. LAWS, ORDINANCES AND EXHORTATIONS

A. Prayer[2]
(1) The sublime station occupied by the Obligatory
Prayers in the Bahá'í Revelation.
(2) The Qiblih:[3]
(a) Identified by the Báb with "the One Whom God
will make manifest".
(b) The appointment made by the Báb is confirmed
by Bahá'u'lláh.
(c) Bahá'u'lláh ordains His resting-place as the
Qiblih after His passing.
(d) Turning to the Qiblih is mandatory while reciting
the Obligatory Prayers. 36 

(3) The Obligatory Prayers are binding on men and
women on attaining the age of maturity, which is
fixed at 15.

(4) Exemption from offering the Obligatory Prayers is
granted to:
(a) Those who are ill.
(b) Those who are over 70.
(c) Women in their courses provided they perform
their ablutions[4] and repeat a specifically revealed
verse[5] 95 times a day.

(5) The Obligatory Prayers should be offered individually.

(6) The choice of one of the three Obligatory Prayers is
permissible.[6]

(7) By "morning", "noon" and "evening", mentioned
in connection with the Obligatory Prayers, is meant
respectively the intervals between sunrise[7] and noon,
between noon and sunset, and from sunset till two
hours after sunset.

(8) The recital of the first (long) Obligatory Prayer, once
in twenty-four hours is sufficient.

(g) It is preferable to offer the third (short) Obligatory
Prayer while standing.

(10) Ablutions:[4]
(a) Ablutions must precede the recital of the Obligatory Prayers.
(b) For every Obligatory Prayer fresh ablutions
must be performed. 37 

(c) Should two Obligatory Prayers be offered at
noon one ablution for both prayers is sufficient.
(d) If water is unavailable or its use harmful to the
face or hands, the repetition, five times, of a
specifically revealed verse[8] is prescribed.
(e) Should the weather be too cold the use of warm
water is recommended.
(f) If ablutions have been performed for other
purposes, their renewal prior to the recital of the
Obligatory Prayer is not required.
(g) Ablutions are essential whether a bath has been
taken previously or not.

(11) Determining the times fixed for Prayer:
(a) Reliance on clocks is permissible in determining
the times for offering the Obligatory Prayers.
(b) In countries situated in the extreme north or
south, where the duration of days and nights
varies considerably, clocks and timepieces should
be relied upon, without reference to sunrise or
sunset.

(12) In case of danger,[9] whether when travelling or not,
for every Obligatory Prayer not offered a prostration
and the recital of a specific verse is enjoined, to be
followed by the repetition, eighteen times, of another
specific verse.[10]

(13) Congregational Prayer[2] is forbidden except the
Prayer for the Dead.

(14) The recital, in its entirety, of the Prayer for the Dead[11] is
prescribed except for those unable to read, who are
commanded to repeat the six specific passages in that
Prayer. 38 

(15) The Obligatory Prayer to be thrice repeated, three
times a day, at morn, noon and evening, has been
superseded by three Obligatory Prayers subsequently
revealed.[12]

(16) The Prayer of the Signs has been annulled, and a specifically
revealed verse substituted for it. The recital of
this verse is not however obligatory.[13]

(17) Hair, sable, bones and the like do not nullify one's
prayer.[14]

B. Fasting

(1) The sublime station occupied by fasting in the Bahá'í
Revelation.

(2) The period of fasting commences with the termination of the
Intercalary Days, and ends with the Naw-Ruz Festival.[15]

(3) Abstinence from food and drink,[16] from sunrise to
sunset, is obligatory.

(4) Fasting is binding on men and women on attaining
the age of maturity, which is fixed at 15.

(5) Exemption from fasting is granted to:
(a) Travellers
i. Provided the journey exceeds 9 hours.
ii. Those travelling on foot, provided the
journey exceeds 2 hours.
iii. Those who break their journey for less
than 19 days.
iv. Those who break their journey during
the Fast at a place where they are to stay
19 days are exempt from fasting only for
the first three days from their arrival. 39 

v. Those who reach home during the Fast
must commence fasting from the day of
their arrival.

(b) Those who are ill.
(c) Those who are over 70.
(d) Women who are with child.
(e) Women who are nursing.
(f) Women in their courses, provided they perform
their ablutions and repeat a specifically revealed
verse 95 times a day.[5]
(g) Those who are engaged in heavy labour, who
are advised to show respect for the law by using
discretion and restraint when availing themselves
of the exemption.

(6) Vowing to fast (in a month other than the one prescribed
for fasting) is permissible. Vows which profit
mankind are however preferable in the sight of God.

C. Laws of Personal Status

(1) Marriage:

(a) Marriage is highly recommended but not obligatory.

(b) Plurality of wives is forbidden.[17]

(c) Marriage is conditioned upon both parties having attained
the age of maturity which is fixed at 15.

(d) Marriage is conditioned on the consent of both
parties and their parents, whether the woman be
a maiden or not. 40 

(e) It is incumbent upon both parties to recite a
specifically revealed verse indicating their being
content with the will of God.[18]

(f) Marriage with one's step-mother is forbidden.

(g) All matters related to marriage with one's kindred are
to be referred to the House of Justice.

(h) Marriage with unbelievers is permitted.
(i) Betrothal:
i. The period of engagement must not exceed 95 days.
ii. It is unlawful to become engaged to a girl before
she reaches the age of maturity.

(j) The Dowry:
i. Marriage is conditioned on payment of a dowry.
ii. The dowry is fixed at 19 mithqals[19] of pure gold
for city-dwellers, and 19 mithqals of silver for
village-dwellers, depending on the permanent residence
of the husband, and not of the wife.
iii. It is forbidden to pay more than 95 mithqals.
iv. It is preferable that a man content himself
with the payment of 19 mithqals of silver.
v. If the full payment of dowry is not possible the
issue of a promissory note is permissible. 41 

(k) Should either party, following the recital of the
specifically revealed verse and the payment of
the dowry, take a dislike to the other, before the
marriage is consummated, the period of waiting[20] is
not necessary prior to a divorce. The taking back of
the dowry, however, is not permitted.

(l) The husband must fix for his wife the time of his
return when intending to travel. If, for a legitimate
reason, he is prevented from returning at
the appointed time, he must inform her and
strive to return to her. If he fails to fulfil either
condition, she must wait 9 months, after which
she may remarry, though it is preferable for her
to wait longer. If news of his death or murder
reaches her, and the news is confirmed by general
report or by 2 reliable witnesses, she may remarry
after the lapse of 9 months.

(m) If the husband departs without informing his
wife of the date of his return, and is aware of the
law prescribed in the Kitáb-i-Aqdas, the wife may
remarry after waiting a full year. If the husband
is unaware of this law, the wife must wait until
news of her husband reaches her.

(n) Should the husband, after the payment of the
dowry, discover that the wife is not a virgin, the
refund of the dowry and of the expenses incurred
may be demanded.

(o) If the marriage has been conditioned on virginity
the refund of the dowry and of the expenses
incurred may be demanded and the marriage invalidated. 42 

To conceal the matter, however, is highly meritorious
in the sight of God.

(2) Divorce:

(a) Divorce is strongly condemned.

(b) If antipathy or resentment develop on the part of
either the husband or the wife, divorce is permissible,
only after the lapse of one full year. The
beginning and end of the year of waiting must be
testified by two or more witnesses. The act of
divorce should be registered by the judicial
officer representing the House of Justice. Intercourse
during this period of waiting is forbidden
and whoever breaks this law must repent and
pay the House of Justice 19 mithqals[19] of gold.

(c) A further period of waiting after divorce has
taken place is not required.

(d) The wife who is to be divorced as a result of her
unfaithfulness forfeits the payment of the expenses
during the waiting period.

(e) Remarrying the wife whom one has divorced is
permissible, provided she has not married another person.
If she has, she must be divorced before her former husband
can remarry her.

(f) If at any time during the waiting period affection
should recur, the marriage tie is valid. If this
reconciliation is followed by estrangement and
divorce is again desired, a new year of waiting
will have to be commenced.

(g) Should differences arise between husband and
wife while travelling, he is required to send her
home, or entrust her to a dependable person, who 43 

will escort her there, paying her journey and her
full year's expenses.

(h) Should a wife insist on divorcing her husband
rather than migrate to another country, the year
of waiting is to be counted from the time they
separate, either while he is preparing to leave, or
upon his departure.

(i) The Islamic Law regarding remarriage with the
wife whom one has previously divorced is abrogated.[21]

(3) Inheritance:[1]

[1] The method of dividing the estate is to be applied in cases of
intestacy. See item (o) in this section and note 25.

(a) Inheritance falls into the following categories:

(1) children 1,080 out of 2,520 shares
(2) husband or wife 390 " 2,520 "
(3) father 330 " 2,520 "
(4) mother 270 " 2,520 "
(5) brother 210 " 2,520 "
(6) sister 150 " 2,520 "
(7) teacher[22] 90 " 2,520 "

(b) The share of the children, as allotted by the Báb is
doubled by Bahá'u'lláh, and an equal portion
correspondingly reduced from each of the remaining
beneficiaries.

(c) i. In cases where there is no issue the share
of the children reverts to the House of
Justice to be expended on orphans and
widows and for whatever will profit
mankind. 44 

ii. If the son of the deceased be dead and
leave issue, these will inherit the share of
their father. If the daughter of the deceased
be dead and leave issue, her share will have
to be divided into the seven categories specified
in the Most Holy Book.

(d) Should one leave offspring but either part or all of
the other categories of inheritors be nonexistent,
two thirds of their shares reverts to the offspring
and one third to the House of Justice.

(e) Should none of the specified beneficiaries exist
two thirds of the inheritance reverts to the nephews
and nieces of the deceased. If these do not exist
the same share reverts to the aunts and
uncles; lacking these to their sons and daughters.
In any case the remaining third reverts to the
House of Justice.

(f) Should one leave none of the aforementioned
heirs, the entire inheritance reverts to the House
of Justice.

(g) The residence and the personal clothing of the
deceased father pass to the male not to the female
offspring.[23] If there be several residences the
principal and most important one passes to the
male offspring. The remaining residences will
together with the other possessions of the deceased
have to be divided among the heirs. If there be
no male offspring two thirds of the
principal residence and the personal clothing of
the deceased father will revert to the female
issue and one third to the House of Justice. In the 45 

case of the deceased mother all her used clothing
is to be equally divided amongst her daughters.
Her unworn clothing, jewels and property must
be divided among her heirs, as well as her used
clothing if she leaves no daughter.

(h) Should the children of the deceased be minors
their share should either be entrusted to a reliable
person or to a company for purposes of investment,
until they attain the age of maturity. A
share of the interest accrued should be assigned
to the trustee.

(i) The inheritance should not be divided until
after the payment of the Huququ'lláh[24] (The
Right of God), of any debts contracted by the
deceased and of any expenses incurred for a befitting
funeral and burial.

(j) If the brother of the deceased is from the same
father he will inherit his full allotted share. If he
is from another father he will inherit only two
thirds of his share, the remaining one third reverting
to the House of Justice. The same law is
applicable to the sister of the deceased.

(k) In case there are full brothers or full sisters,
brothers and sisters from the mother's side do not
inherit.

(l) A non-Bahá'í teacher does not inherit. If there
should be more than one teacher the share allotted
to the teacher is to be equally divided among
them.

(m) Non-Bahá'í heirs do not inherit.[25]

(n) Aside from the wife's used clothing and gifts of
jewellery or otherwise which have been proven 46 
to have been given her by her husband, whatever
the husband has purchased for his wife are to be
considered as the husband's possessions to be
divided among his heirs.
(o) Any person is at liberty to will his possessions as
he sees fit provided he makes provisions for the
payment of Huququ'lláh and the discharge of his
debts.

D. Miscellaneous Laws, Ordinances and Exhortations

(I) Miscellaneous Laws and Ordinances:

(a) Pilgrimage[26]
(b) Huququ'lláh[24]
(c) Endowments
(d) The Mashriqu'l-Adhkar[27]
(e) Duration of the Bahá'í Dispensation[28]
(f) Bahá'í Festivals[29]
(g) The Nineteen Day Feast
(h) The Bahá'í Year
(i) The Intercalary Days
(j) The age of maturity
(k) Burial of the dead[30]
(l) Engaging in a trade or profession is made obligatory
and is exalted to the rank of worship
(m) Obedience to government
(n) Education of children
(o) The writing of a testament
(p) Tithes[32]
(q) Repetition of the Greatest Name 95 times a day[33]
(r) The hunting of animals[34] 47 

(s) Treatment of female servants[35]
(t) The finding of lost property[36]
(u) Disposition of treasure trove
(v) Disposal of objects held in trust[37]
(w) Manslaughter[38]
(x) Definition of just witnesses[39]
(y) Prohibitions:
i. Interpretation of the Holy Writ
ii. Slave trading
iii. Asceticism
iv. Monasticism
v. Mendicancy[40]
vi. Priesthood
vii. Use of pulpits
viii. The kissing of hands
ix. Confession of sins[41]
x. Plurality of wives[17]
xi. Intoxicating drinks
xii. Opium
xiii. Gambling
xiv. Arson[42]
xv. Adultery[42]
xvi. Murder[42]
xvii. Theft[42]
xviii. Homosexuality[43]
xix. Congregational prayer, except for the
dead[2]
xx. Cruelty to animals
xxi. Idleness and sloth
xxii. Backbiting
xxiii. Calumny
xxiv. Carrying arms unless essential 48 

xxv. Use of public pools in Persian baths[44]
xxvi. Entering a house without the owner's
permission
xxvii. Striking or wounding a person
xxviii. Contention and conflict
xxix. Muttering sacred verses in the street
xxx. Plunging one's hand in food[45]
xxxi. Shaving one's head
xxxii. Growth of men's hair beyond the lobe of
the ear

(2) Abrogation of specific laws and ordinances of previous
Dispensations, which prescribed:

(a) Destruction of books
(b) Prohibition of the wearing of silk
(c) Prohibition of the use of gold and silver utensils
(d) Limitation of travel
(e) Offering priceless gifts to the Founder of the
Faith
(f) Prohibition on questioning the Founder of the
Faith
(g) Prohibition against remarrying one's divorced
wife[21].
(h) Penalizing whoever causes sadness to his neighbour
(i) Prohibition of music
(j) Limitations upon one's apparel and beard
(k) Uncleanliness of divers objects and peoples[46]
(l) Uncleanliness of semen
(m) Uncleanliness of certain objects for purposes of
prostration 49 

(3) Miscellaneous Exhortations:

(a) To associate with the followers of all religions
with fellowship
(b) To honour one's parents
(c) Not to wish for others what one does not wish
for one's self
(d) To teach and propagate the Faith after the ascension
of its Founder
(e) To assist those who arise to promote the Faith
(f) Not to depart from the Writings or to be misled
by those who do
(g) To refer to the Holy Writ when differences
arise
(h) To immerse one's self in the study of the Teachings
(i) Not to follow one's idle fancies and vain imaginations
(j) To recite the holy verses at morn and at eventide
(k) To recite the holy verses melodiously
(l) To teach one's children to chant the holy verses
in the Mashriqu'l-Adhkar
(m) To study such arts and sciences as benefit mankind
(n) To take counsel together
(o) Not to be indulgent in carrying out the statutes
of God
(p) To repent to God of one's sins
(q) To distinguish one's self through good deeds
i. To be truthful
ii. To be trustworthy 50 

iii. To be faithful
iv. To be righteous and fear God
v. To be just and fair
vi. To be tactful and wise
vii. To be courteous
viii. To be hospitable
ix. To be persevering
x. To be detached
xi. To be absolutely submissive to the Will of God
xii. Not to stir up mischief
xiii. Not to be hypocritical
xiv. Not to be proud
xv. Not to be fanatical
xvi. Not to prefer one's self to one's neighbour
xvii. Not to contend with one's neighbour
xviii. Not to indulge one's passions
xix. Not to lament in adversity
xx. Not to contend with those in authority
xxi. Not to lose one's temper
xxii. Not to anger one's neighbour

(r) To be closely united
(s) To consult competent physicians when ill
(t) To respond to invitations
(u) To show kindness to the kindred of the Founder
of the Faith[47]
(v) To study languages for the furtherance of the Faith
(w) To further the development of cities and countries
for the glorification of the Faith 51 

(x) To restore and preserve the sites associated with
the Founders of the Faith
(y) To be the essence of cleanliness:
i. To wash one's feet
ii. To perfume one's self
iii. To bathe in clean water
iv. To cut one's nails
v. To wash soiled things in clean water
vi. To be stainless in one's dress
vii. To renew the furnishings of one's house[48]

V. SPECIFIC ADMONITIONS, REPROOFS AND WARNINGS
Addressed to:

1. The entire human race
2. Crowned heads of the world[49]
3. The concourse of ecclesiastics[50]
4. The Rulers of America and Presidents of the Republics therein[51]
5. William I, King of Prussia[52]
6. Francis Joseph, Emperor of Austria[53]
7. The people of the Bayan
8. Members of parliaments throughout the world

VI. MISCELLANEOUS SUBJECTS

1. The transcendent character of the Bahá'í Revelation
2. The exalted station of the Author of the Faith
3. The supreme importance of the Kitáb-i-Aqdas, "The

Most Holy Book"
4. The doctrine of the "Most Great Infallibility"[54]
5. The twin duties of recognition of the Manifestation

and observance of His Laws, and their inseparability[55] 52 

6. The end of all learning is the recognition of Him Who

is the Object of all knowledge[56]
7. The blessedness of those who have recognized the

fundamental verity "He shall not be asked of His
doings"[57]
8. The revolutionizing effect of the "Most Great

Order"[58]
9. The selection of a single language and the adoption of

a common script for all on earth to use: one of two
signs of the maturity of the human race[59]
10. Prophecies of the Báb regarding "He Whom God

will make manifest"
11. Prediction relating to opposition to the Faith
12. Eulogy of the king who will profess the Faith and

arise to serve it[60]
13. The instability of human affairs[61]
14. The meaning of true liberty[62]
15. The merit of all deeds is dependent upon God's acceptance
16. The importance of love for God as the motive of

obedience to His Laws[63]
17. The importance of utilizing material means
18. Eulogy of the learned among the people of Baha[64]
19. Assurance of forgiveness to Mirza Yahya should he

repent[65]
20. Apostrophe addressed to Tihran[66]
21. Apostrophe addressed to Constantinople and its

people[67]
22. Apostrophe addressed to the "banks of the Rhine"[68] 53 

23. Condemnation of those who lay false claim to esoteric

knowledge
24. Condemnation of those who allow pride in their

learning to debar them from God
25. Prophecies relating to Khurasan[69]
26. Prophecies relating to Kirman[70]
27. Allusion to Shaykh Ahmad-i-Ahsa'i[71]
28. Allusion to the Sifter of Wheat[72]
29. Condemnation of Haji Muhammad-Karim Khan[73]
30. Condemnation of Shaykh Muhammad-Hasan[74]
31. Allusion to Napoleon III[75]
32. Allusion to Siyyid-i-Muhammad-i-Isfahani[76]
33. Assurance of aid to all those who arise to serve the

Faith[77]

(Baha'u'llah, Synopsis and Codification of the Kitab-i-Aqdas, p. 33)

Jonah
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Postby Jonah » Tue Sep 27, 2005 6:59 pm

To everyone who participated, thanks for the discussion. I'm going to close the thread now because it seems to be devolving into a discussion of which religion is "better" etc. (including 4 just-posted back-and-forth posts which I just deleted). I don't believe we should be approaching a discussion of our Faiths that way, it can lead to more heat than light.

Thanks for your understanding, -Jonah


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